Does God Have A Caste?

Meena Kandasamy

By Meena Kandasamy

“Caste is a state of mind. It is a disease of mind.” (Revolutionary Dr. BR Ambedkar)

Last week, I was shocked to learn that a judicial magistrate court in India has issued summons to me under Sections 153153 (A) and 505(2) of the Indian Penal Code, stringent provisions of the law that seek to punish those “wantonly giving provocation with intent to cause riot”, “promoting enmity between different groups” and “creating or promoting enmity, hatred or ill-will between classes.” As the English translator of Uproot Hindutva: The Fiery Voice of the Liberation Panthers, I was accused, along with its author Thol. Thirumavalavan (Member of Parliament and President of the Viduthalai Chiruthaigal Katchi party) and publisher Mandira Sen (of Stree-Samya Books, Kolkata) of creating communal disharmony. What was our crime? We had portrayed two Tamil folk deities, Ponnar and Sankar, as “Dalit brothers.” A non-Indian parallel might illustrate this story better: An African-American leader says Jesus Christ was Black, and a White man takes him to court for causing communal disharmony. Would we not readily label the White man a racist and a supremacist?

Back to the Tamil context and its intolerance. Advocate M. Loganathan, the 38-year-old litigant in this case belongs to the Kongu Vellala Gounder community, a feudal, upper caste that became ‘backward’ after petitioning the state government in 1975, and works as the Student Wing Convenor of the Kongunadu Munnetra Kazhagam, a party that was formed to counter the new pressure exerted by Dalit politics from parties such as the Viduthalai Chiruthaigal Katchi.

The petitioner held that he was offended by the following endnote: “Annanmar Kathai is the most significant and lengthy oral epic in the history of Tamil Nadu. Two Dalit brothers, Ponnar and Sankar, who saved their people from invasion are worshipped” (p.160 of the book). This endnote occurs with reference to Thol. Thirumavalavan’s speech on 14 April 2003, emphasizing how he sought to implement Dr. Ambedkar’s ideology reflected in his party’s slogan “We shall Uproot Hindutva. We shall retrieve our lost identity.” (p.143) Neither the original Tamil speech, nor my translation and endnote had a deliberate intent to offend any community. For seven years since its publication in 2004, Uproot Hindutva has not caused any communal discord.

Loganathan claims that Ponnar and Sankar belong to a Kongu Vellala Gounder subcaste, and the alleged misinformation in our book (calling them Dalit) was a premeditated act by which we have sought to incite the Dalit people of the region to militate for their rights of worship towards these Gods and revolt against the Kongu Vellala Gounders. He seems to want to appropriate the deity to his own caste group, and is effectively saying that it is insulting to call the deity a Dalit. This litigation is an interesting case of a wolf in sheep’s clothing crying wolf! In truth, western Tamil Nadu stands witness to the gruesome flesh-and-blood reality of an oppressive caste system that humiliates, subjugates, rapes and murders Dalits, most notably the Arundhatiyars, on an everyday basis. In a process of reverse transference, this fanatical cruelty sometimes seeps in from the real world to the realm of myth and make-believe, and that is why caste Hindus like the petitioner Loganathan experience “extreme mental trauma, irreparable hardship and grievous emotional hurt” when two folk deities are called Dalit.

The co-opting and appropriation process of Hindutvaization/ Brahminization/Sansritization swallowed a lot of our village/regional/folk deities into the burgeoning Hindu pantheon, and Dalit deities were ascribed caste-Hindu origins because the casteist mindset could not accept the Dalit in the role of a valiant hero. The oral nature of the epic in which Ponnar-Sankar appears makes it almost impossible to ascertain either their exact caste origins, or even if they really existed historically. The present case filed against us does not arise out of the petitioner’s faithfulness to history: it clearly springs out of his intolerance, that refuses to treat Dalit heroes as worthy of deification. Such a litigation reflects a worldview that if heroes have to retain godhood, they have to maintain caste-Hindu credentials. That is why, the litigant claims to be hurt when his ancestral deities are said to be Dalit.

I am outraged that a caste-Hindu is able to misuse a court of law by filing such a patently abusive and absurd case that disgraces the history and experience of being Dalit. The real offence in this instance is the litigant’s act of taking offence when something holy and venerable is identified as Dalit. I only hope that the real crime here—rampant and rabid anti-Dalit hatred—gets its due punishment.

I am in the UK now, and I will have to abandon my activities here and hurry back home to face the case because I have been asked to appear before the magistrate court on 1 July 2011. I will fight this casteist absurdity and publicity-seeking harassment that masquerades as a court case. Such a frivolous petition only displays the loathsome, supremacist caste-Hindu mentality as to who is worthy of worship in our society: in this telling, a hero can never be Dalit, and conversely, a Dalit can never be a hero.

Meena Kandasamy is a poet, writer and translator. Her latest collection of poetry is Ms Militancy (2010). She is a Visiting Fellow with the School of English, Newcastle University. She blogs at http://meenu.wordpress.com

130 Responses to Does God Have A Caste?

  1. Arunmozhli says:

    Dear kalai,

    I am admired about you.Being a caste hindu you have given the neutral points .I am neither kongu vellalar or nor the so called dalit to say this I have born out of intercaste marriage.now days a boy and girl loving each other sincerely and the boy has good qualities means why should we prevent them.These gounders resisting about intercaste marriage are ready to marry with girl from kerala……..this is the fact because there is no enough girls in gouder community itself or if it exits these people demanding more dowry.The gouder girls who are well educated thinks that who will be the good life partner not thinkig of caste ……….and finaly i want to say it is full of material world.if the same so called dalit has rich in money or power those people will be accepted.Being a diverse cast system kerala people have changed we have to learn from them………….

  2. ARULMOZHI POLLACHI says:

    Ponnar Sankar popularly known as annamaars are worshipped as the heroic gods … they belong to the kongu vellaalar community .. we strongly oppose your promotions of describing them as dalits and creating an unwanted tense situation and thus a communal enemity …

  3. Suman Mukherjee says:

    Hello,
    I think this lady, is unnecessarily trying to put his blame on someone’s shoulder. Not only that, she is even blaming the Indian judicial system and later may be the judgement if it is not in her favour—really disgusting.

    Regarding untouchability, I would like to say, that it is banned in India at least officially. Now do you find untouchablitiy in local trains, long distant trains, buses, cinema halls, libraries, schools, colleges, etc, etc. Therefore, do not base your opinion on what is happening (or has happened) in some obscure village in a remote corner of India. Most of the Shivaji Maharaj’s Peshwas’s were from Chitpavan Brahmin community, while he was from the OBC community. What are you talking man……..?

    You poor people have been known to make a mountain out of mole. I live in an apartment where most of the inmates are from the “Dalit” (Untouchable) community of Maharashtra. I am a Kulin Bengali Hindu Brahmin—I never had any problem with them as regards my caste.

    The problem is that we speak without understanding many things like temple entry. See if God is present everywhere why is there a need to enter temples?

    2ndly, every temples has their own rituals and customs. In many temples even the Brahmins are not allowed to enter the sanctum without proper bath or “Suddhi”—therefore when there are some rules in some temples why the hell the rule has to be broken? Can you do the same thing in Vatican and Kaba (Mecca), where also certain rules are there for the commoners?

    Moreover, if a person wants to make a temple to worship, he can do it. Isn’t it? All is needed is a photo of a deity and a room. So, why is it necessary to go and beg entry in someone’s temple, except creating some political muscle–flexing?

    All these political gimmicks had been tried by Dr.Ambedkar brigade and a large section of the upper was made fool. Dr.Ambekar never took part in the freedom struggle but took maximum benefits for his own people. This fellow distorted Hinduism and also Indian history too…….

    Most of the “Dalits” (or lower caste in general) never talk about the facilities they get under a casteist government but always talk of what happened in the past. This is the most unfortunate part of India and Indians—Poor people, with poor thinking. I really got irritated by such mindless and illogical writing.

    Hope my writings would open some of the blind eyes. If you want to learn Hinduism, kindly send a mail.

    Regards,
    Suman Mukhopadhyay.
    E-mail: suman2005s@rediffmail.com

  4. deva says:

    do u know who created caste, many says lord krishna if so krishna is a brahmin . another one comes like this who created krishna so the creators are brahamins .they created us to work for them they have created u to live in this beautiful world .

  5. kavipriya says:

    Dear Ramani

    I have seen villages where untouchability still exists. You just come and see the government schools in villages in and around coimbatore, you can see how children from dalit community are treated? Even so called educated generation are not different.Education, improvement in the Economic status would not change this thing unless people change. Again about this PCR act , even when a dalit files a case, they are not going to arrest the person with no hearing, no bail. Police officer can investigate these cases under some superior authority.

    And what you are going to say about denying temple entry, two tumbler system which still exists in villages ?

  6. kathir says:

    ponnar and shankar belong to kongu vellalar community.its true.

  7. Venkatakrishnan says:

    One has to trace the source of these cast divisions.
    ‘Caste’ was a name given to the type of work they did in the olden days to meet their ends. It is pretty logical why dalits are invariably poor. But that is not something forever. In the past decade, one can find a lot of dalits than before coming up in different stages in different avenues.

    One should learn to be patient for the wheel to turn. All these bashing wont do any good. It forces the cynics to become even more cynical. Lets not make this effort to uplift dalits a joke anymore.

    Thiruma doesnt have a moral right to talk about keeping promises as he himself tries to fool the people on every single election. ‘Dalit panthers’ and PMK are the worst symbols of Tamilnadu politics with not an iota of credit to the other parties.

  8. Nilavai Selvam says:

    Dear Mr. Ramani

    I do agree that one may not have equality (wealth, education, prosperity in his/her work-job, possession) among the people of his/her own generation. But, every human-being has a longing for the respect and dignity. If a belief system reduces the dignity of a human to nothing, it is worthless/useless for the well being of a human society. That is what your Hindutva philosophy (A philosophy built on Caste System) does.

    I would like put forward to you some Q???????????s

    Is a new born baby an untouchable by birth?

    If so, who has an authority to define a baby as an untouchable?. If God does, is he not a stupid and wretched?

    Who has given a authority to condemn the dalit’s (According to the foolish classification of hindutva) and instructing them not to sit on chairs of a bus while Goundars and standing? Is not your hindutava?

    Who has an authority to implement the anti-religion-conversion act?

    Is not every one in India has right to choose and practice their religion? (Except Buddhism, no region in India is of Indian origin (Hindu, Muslim and Christian).

    Then, who has right to make India as a Hindu nation?

    What is the meaning of Hindu nationalism? Is this not a philosophy of fascism?

    Is it right/fair for a secular nation to embrace a religious fundamentalism?

    Is not foolish customs/patterns established by the stupid people of this nation/world give pains, grief and suffering to the innocent poor?

    Is it not being done with wrong motives for the self-gain of the particular section of the people?

    With best regards

    • Ramani says:

      Dear Mr. Nilavai,

      I do agree that every human beings look and long for respect. Same time, people like Thiruma instigate his community people to attack others who have worked hard. It takes few generations to attain good education, wealth and family and community culture. Why would someone want to give it up? If my father/mother earned in his life time, most likely they may pass it on to me. Similarly, if a community preserves certain things like education, family rituals etc… they would like to preserve it. Don’t we discuss about preserving Tamil culture? Does this mean Telugu culture is bad?

      The issue is people like Thiruma instigate his community people for their political gains. What did he do in return for his community? He attacks Congress, but if you look at it, Congress helped Dalits in many ways. They argued for their reservation and got it (One may argue reservation is bad, but they did achieve someething for the Dalit community). They made several Cabinet Ministers, President etc.. from Dalit community. They can proudly tell that they brought social reforms, without creating social disturbances.

      Today rules are equal in India. Yes, there could face some discrimination. Discrimination happens to many, not just to Dalits alone. Physically handicapped people are discriminated, Discrimination over language happens. But they all choose to fight in a honourable way. Even Ambedkar fought within the system, without antagonizing everyone. Just because you had bad experience with one Thevar, or One vanniar or one Gounder or one Brahmin, it does not mean the whole community is bad. Fight the individual, but not the community. Do you know even Dalits discriminate tribe people like (Nari Kuravars etc..)?

      Leaders like Thiruma preach to hate other communities, which is dangerous. Then that particular community will gang up against Dalits. He provokes his boys to do something may be bordering illegal. Just because you are upset, you can’t ask your boys to tease girls from other community. Teasing a girl is a crime, regardless of the caste you belong to. I guess you would agree to it. One mistake can’t be corrected by another mistake.

      If Thiruma cares for his people, let them encourage his people to become Government officers, Teachers, Writers, Entrpreneurs etc to move up in the ladder. Once you are up in the ladder, nobody can write you off…

      In fact, he is spoiling his community people by spreading hate. Otherwise, they would have become IAS Officers, Teachers etc..

      What did he achieve in his years in politics?

    • Amar Sambadas Khade says:

      Well Said Nilavai Selvam!!!!!!!!!
      Cheers

  9. Nilavai Selvam says:

    Mr. Casteist Hindus Ramani/Sahaa/Prem

    A warm and fresh news is for three of you

    # One of the dalit family members complained,”When we travel in buses we are forced to get up from our seats and the upper community orders us to get up and says that they (Gounder community) should be the only ones who can sit.” “This kind of discrimination existed only at the school level, but this has begun to spread in villages and buses as well,”he added.

    For full article, Please visit the following link

    http://news.oneindia.in/2011/06/24/tn-police-arrests-300-for-caste-discrimination-aid0156.html

    Jaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii HiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiND

    You people can encourage and entertain them.

    With regards

  10. Nilavai Selvam says:

    Dear Prem,

    # In fact, Tamilians are dying, already many died in false doctrines of Hindutva. This is also another reason; you are not getting answers for Mr. Ramani’s questions.

    # Mr. Prem, by saying this, you can’t hide the truth. Please remember, Hindutva has no part with Tamilians, it is a foreign religion/language/philosophy to Tamilians. In this point, Thriruma and Meena are 100% correct. There is no doubt about that.
    # Hindutva corrupts the minds of the entire Tamilians, not Dalits alone. Such that all injustice, perversion, corruption and violence’s are taking roots in every corners of Tamil Nadu. Dalits are not exceptions. How long they can be mere spectators? Struggle for the existence and survival of the fittest is the nature’s philosophy (Darwin’s Theory). However, for the well being of the human race there should not be any upper-lower castes (Hindutva’s Politics) and there should not be any racial discrimination (Westerners Politics). Whatever the scriptures that supports this casteism/communalism and racial discrimination they should be destroyed for the well being of human race.

    # Finally I would say, For silly Qs ??????????????????, no one will answer. Even if someone answers, you people will not understand because you are religious fanatics. If you want to understand you should remove your own intellectual spectacles and look without any bias on others perspectives. A religious fundamentalist, people like you, can’t do that.

    Cheers

    With best regards

    • Ramani says:

      Dear Nilavai Selvam,

      I don’t wear intellectual spectacles, I don’t see Prem wearing it either. Rather you seem to wear “Communist” spectacles. You seem to believe in making everything equal. Make a rich person poor, and make an intellectual person to become stupid. I agree every human being has some basic rights, the right to practice a religion, the right to follow his community rituals, the right to eat the food he/she wants, the right to study the language he/she wants etc…

      Just because someone is better off, you can’t view that person is casteist, religious fanatics, so and so… If Dalits are poor, let them empower to realize their dreams. But you see, every human being should be taught make themselves better. Not like the way, you people teach (Hate people or community, which has worked for generations to attain their place, position and so and so…).

      By believing people or preachers like you, Dalits will be left nowhere. You spread false beliefs, canards and create disharmony etc…

      • Sahaa says:

        I am going to work for bringing equality among “every bees”.
        I am going to work for bringing equality among “indian and african elephant”.
        I am going to work for bringing equality among “Tigers of bengal and Kalakkad”.
        I am going to work for bringing equality among “Fig fruit and melons”.
        I am going to work for bringing equality among “idiots and intellects”
        I am going to work for bringing equality among “Water and fire”
        I am going to work for bringing equality among “hen and cocks”
        I am going to work for bringing equality among “my five fingers, by cutting of the long fingers through platic surgery”
        I am going to work for bringing equality among “tall and short by introducing growth hormones and retardants”
        .
        .
        .
        heheheeee Welcome we will make everything.

        If the above things were foolishness then bringing human equals, economically and responsibility wise.

        Everything and everyone is unique in nature. Preserve them and protect them. Western hidden agenda is to destroy them to get their sucking mouths inside us. Beware. It will come in the form of linguistics fanatism, christian conversions, equality issues, poverty upliftment, development aids, gorvernment policies, higher studies fellowships, trade agreements, etc.

        Caste is the backbone of India. It is been targetted by missionaries to weaken it.

        • Nilavai Selvam says:

          Mr. Sahaa

          One may not have equality among the people of his in own generation. But, Every human-being has a longing for the respect and dignity. If a system reduces the dignity of a human to nothing, it is worthless/useless for the well being of a human society. That is what your India’s Back-bone (Caste System) does. If you don’t believe me, please visit the following link.

          http://news.oneindia.in/2011/06/24/tn-police-arrests-300-for-caste-discrimination-aid0156.html

          This is a Fresh News. Like this there are thousands.

  11. Prem says:

    To Ramani,

    your replies on this topic and some lines about Meena & Thiruma[ perhaps Facts] were darn good. No wonder why many dalit & meena supporters have not replied back to your questions. I guess they don’t have one. Meena & Thiruma – you attention seekers go get some real jobs to do.

    Ramani – Bravo & standing applause to you :)

    • Ramani says:

      Dear Prem,

      Thanks. I don’t believe any caste is superior to each other and is religion. But I don’t like people doing reverse discrimination. You can’t use Dalit tag or women tag to malign others. This is my perspective

      Police cases related untouchability:
      Most of the people I met in TN say that they have been harassed by this act. If a Dalit complains in a police station, automatically you are arrested and with no hearing, no bail. There is no check/balance to verify whether it is a true case. People are terrified of this law, even to say that someone is not performing in his/her work. Systems blindly follows, which is another form of discrimination

      False notion about untouchability:
      No doubt untouchability existed in 1960-70s time frame. Nowadays, someone is willing to work hard, they can come up in life. Dalits are NOT treated in an inhuman way. Of course, economic disparity may lead to clustering. Particular caste may be rich, so they may want to move among themselves. Particular caste may be better educated, so they may want to interact among themselves. Comfort level. It is not discrimination. Laws are equal. Anybody can study in any school. Anybody can goto any job. Obviously if you are poor, you may not ble to go good chools, eat in nice hotels. It is not just for Dalits and it applies to all. Don’t mix economic disparity and caste discrimination

      Some of them started to blackmail also. It is a crime

      There has been many cases, where dowry cases have been used to settle scores.

      Writers like Meena:
      Obviously writers like Meena exploit. They say Dalits are discriminated. How many times has Meena visited a village? Has even entertained people of her community to mingle with her? It is very fashionable to write in international forum and get some kudos and money? Does she have guts to write pitfalls in CHristianity? She does a Fellowshio in UK. Can she write about ill treatment to Asians in UK? She is not a great writer, but a write selectively stoking the feelings of angry people.

      False beliefs about Hinduism
      As a human being and a free citizen, I have a right to practice the religion I want, rituals I want. I have freedom to invite whom I want for my marriage functions, freedom to invite to my community events. It is my choice. As long as I don’t interfere in others life, nobody should care. Many of these discrimination feelings come because, they are neglected in a particular group. It is not discrimination. If there is a meeting between Prim Ministers and Presidents of the world, most of us are likely to be cold shouldered. It is not discrimination. I know many Dalits who are IAS officers, and well educated don’t want to hang with other own community and relatives. Understand the difference between discrimination and cold shouldering

      • tam says:

        you are a caste terrorist.i dont want to write any lengthy comments because that will not change your castiet mind.

        • Kris says:

          Hello Everyone,
          I don’t seem to understand the purpose of this blog. The people supporting dalit upliftment evidently know neither Tamil nor Sanskrit to note their commonness or what both has got to say on equality of people.

          Guys that support Dalit and Writers like Meena, why don’t you people do some networking to uplift the Dalits by providing free schooling instead of lower cut off marks. Then why are you in UK at all ? Study Tamil. Research on all the literary works in Tamil and come out with startling facts on your glorious past without a single mention about Sanatana Dharma. Better be educated Meena that there’s no caste called Hinduism and most importantly, Your UK relatives coined that term. Why do you loath Ms. Meena?

          Rise Questions like How we built Temples without electricity ? What happened to the Renaissance artists and free thinkers who challenged the Church ?

          Sahaa and Many others who are against Hindutva, Please be assured that I side you people in uprooting Hindutva and making realize that all dravidian practices were refined by Vedas which doesn’t have a term anywhere called ” Hindu”. Please become bright in first learning what Sanatana Dharma has got to say before blowing your mouths from diatiribe. and Meena, please keep quite.

          People should first serve the country and then their religion. One commentator who typed Jai Hind, Friend, I have a suggestion to make –
          Why don’t you organize a camp of Dalits and other backward classes to fight for for Better Education and Better Food?

          Why Don’t you organize a big Organ Donating Camp and get the people (Both Dalits and Non Dalits) and lets see how it goes?

          Run a Campaign saying ” Don’t Fabricate History”
          If I am to charge with proofs, that would insult your intelligence on any subject that is supposed to enlighten and not like you utter hear – acerbic!

          And to all Dravidians, If you mock at the temples, We(Intellectual class – No Brahmins or Non Brahmins, all those who can think rationally belong to this class) laugh double sided at the Superstitious Hindus that follow rituals without knowledge and at your inferiority complex alike. If you mock at the scriptures, which is more scientific and more sane than the others I refuse to mention, it only shows what you are…

          Kris

  12. Nilavai Selvam says:

    Dear Mr. Sahaa and others

    Subject: Poonar and Sankar are not Tamil Gods.

    # In reality Hinduism does not belong to tamil nation. It is not a Tamil Culture. Hinduism is the culture of those who follow Sanskrit language/an instrument of Hindutva. Ancient Tamil people are well cultured people and kind hearted people. They did not even think of inequality among the people. They were just and righteous people. Evidences are there in SankathTamil (Kurunthogai, Naladiyar, Purananooru, Agananooru etc). You can understand this if you know tamil especially SankathTamil.
    Although in my certificate I have been forcibly given a tag called hindu. I am not a hindu. This I realized myself two years back. It has happened not because of Thiruma or some other political leaders. It has happened because I questioned my own Tamil scriptures (Kurunthogai, Naladiyar, Purananuru, Agananooru etc) and its cultures. These scriptures do say about my ethnicity but not about my religion. In specific Hindu religion, like other religions, Muslim or Christianity is a foreign religion to the native Indians (Ancient Dravidian, 97% of present Indians).

    # Therefore, I am not a hindu. I am a converted hindu. My forefathers were converted forcibly during India’s freedom fight. Although, India had been freed from British, my forefathers were fettered in hindu religion, a political religion.

    # Another example is the distorted history of Buddha/demolition of Buddhism in India. I have seen in my own eyes. In Mumbai, several ancient Buddhist temple (e. g. Elephanta Caves) are now hindus temples either siva or vishnu. Even, Madurai, Thirupurum Kundrum Muruga’s temple is an example. Cave temples are not hindu temples. Cave temples are Buddhist temples.

    # It appears that Poonar and Sankar are not to be original Tamil Gods. Because, the word Sankar belongs to sanskrit. It could be a specific example of cultural destruction, happened in the name of hindutva, in ancient days to destroy Tamil culture and Tamil people.

    # Therefore, I am a true Tamilan “Marathatamilan” not a hindu. A true Tamilan does not have any caste or religion. But every Tamilan has his own ethnic origin, that you can’t claim it as his caste which is described in oppressive Hinduism.

    With love and regards

    Nilavai Selvam

    • Nilavai Selvam says:

      Sorry, it not “MarathaTamilan”. It is MarathTamilan

    • venky says:

      Hi,

      I am not Tamil….but I read “Purananaru” translation by George . Hart…..He was awarded a prize by Karunanidhi govt…..and is from Harvard…..

      In it he writes that caste existed in ancient Tamil Nadu (kutam). It still does…even Purananaru 82 speaks about ….and “low caste leather worker”………

      http://books.google.com/books?id=cI3osJ5Pz8MC&printsec=frontcover&dq=purananuru&hl=en&ei=qfYeTt7eIc6i-gbj8LySAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-thumbnail&resnum=2&ved=0CC8Q6wEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

      Sangam literature mentions : Veliyr Kings, Konars, etc. in Purananaru…..

      Ancient Vedas and Bhagavat Gita do not speak about “untouchability”….neither does “Varna” mean “Jati” or “kulam”…..

      Every one in India has a “kutam” or “kulam” or “kul”…..it is not “Varna”…..it is there in north India also….and I think “Varna” as such was never followed in South India…..Brahmins were there….but where are the Kshatriya’s & Vaishyas and Shudras ???

      Even Dr. Ambedkar says so….. that caste is not Vedic……you can read his annihilation of caste on internet…..

      The “most-polluting” caste in ancient Hindu thought was “Chandala”….(the one working in burning dead bodies)……if you go to Varanasi (the oldest crematorium ghats)……you can see that several people of that community know “Sanskrit” and they are feared….also “Aghoris” (see the movie “Naan Kadavul”) roam there…..and everyone respects the community as agents of Shiva……….they may be IGNORANT…..but you cannot call that it is some sort of “racism” or stuff !……

      I hope u understand…..you can go to Varanasi burning ghats and check for yourself ! There are many discriptions of Chandalas in Sanskrit and Vedic rishis like “Matanga” were born in that caste !!

  13. Samanandha says:

    Meena Kandaswamy is on the right track. About a week back, the Times of India featured an article where a Dalit who had the audacity to ride a motorcycle through a hindu street was manhandled. People who insist that casteism died out 40 years back deserve to be admitted to some good mental asylum. It is well documented history that Dalits are raped, maimed, forced to eat human excreta and humiliated in every possible way by gounders and other parasitic castes. I have not heard of even a single case where the offending gounders/maravars were punished. The allegation of false cases lodged by Dalits is so amusing…false cases…by Dalits…really????????? I am from Nellai maavatam and the hindus in village areas will not allow Dalits to sit on the benches at tea shops. There are still morons who insist that other countries are also casteist. (1) even if other countries are casteist, that does not lessen your crime (2) in ther countries there are groups who are equal to each other and who fight – nothing comparable to hindu society where rascals, thieves and idiots from twice born castes are allowed to get away with anything and intellectuals from indigineous tribes are belittled. Down with hindutva! down with bloody casteists! hope the caste system and its supporters go to hell!

  14. Ramani says:

    As long as human beings exist, you can’t stop the comparisons. On groups feels better than others. It is the natural law. You have to aspire for the best

    1) Don’t we kill animals to have Non-Vegetarian food? What makes you to think that animals are inferior? Is it just because they can’t voice their opinion?
    2) In movies, people repeatedly show fair skinned woman as beautiful. It is OK to have a hero (VijayaKanth, Rajnikanth etc…), who is dark and pot bellied, but woman should be in her 20s and fair skinned. Most of the movies are not taken by Brahmin producers? How come nobody protests? This is also discrimination
    3) There are several cases, where Dalit Police officers, Government officers ill treat other community people. Nobody even talks about it. Do you think, all our Dalit Officers are fair and righteous? Yet, you never hear complaints.
    4) There are many cases, where Dalit boys eve tease girls. Parents are afraid, because if you go to Police station, it always leads to untouchability cases. Nobody will talk. Obviously people like KV Thomas who sit in America do not need to face this. So, he can write and bitch whatever he wants and instigate people. These people are good in talking about others, but never introspect.

    Caste is not discrimination, but it is about identification and about faith. Don’t we have last names like Smith (Smith work), Johnson (Priest), Clark (clerical work) etc… in western world? What is wrong if people in India use Thevar, Chettiar, Gounder etc…

    No caste is superior and if it is understood, it is not a problem. Problem is because of socio-economic differences and it gets manifested in the form of discrimination.

    • Nilavai Selvam says:

      That is why I stress you that the concept of Varna can be removed from hindu texts. It has to be removed from manusmrithi and bhaghavat geetha. Both texts, possibly all hindu texts should be re-written to improve hinduism and for the well being of human race.

      • Sahaa says:

        It has to be removed from manusmrithi and bhaghavat geetha. Both texts, possibly all hindu texts should be re-written to improve hinduism///////////////

        Selvam,
        It is typical idea of evangelical sects i.e. corrupting others. No one one is reading anything to restore the VARNA. It is their culture. Cultural transition to alien one will lead to destruction.

        • Nilavai Selvam says:

          Mr. Sahaa

          Varna is not a Tamil culture. Please stop spoiling Tamil Culture with your varna.

          • Sahaa says:

            What is Tamil culture? As E.Ve.Ra. said, a barbaric? You people will never come out of propagandists dogma?

    • Naveen says:

      —————–As long as human beings exist, you can’t stop the comparisons. On groups feels better than others. It is the natural law. You have to aspire for the best———

      There is huge difference between comparision and discrimination. Comparision helps to improve but the comparision with the brahminical social order is not to improve but to show themselves as high and others low….this process results only in discrimination. One caste feels better than others……There is not caste without the outcaste, to keep themselves high its their dharma to make others low….Its brahminical law and not natural law…..This nature does not compare to discriminate saying only you should have water, only you should have good air, only you could sow seeds , only your hand food should be taken, nature is equal to humans but not the brahminical social order…………..Gods way, natural way to fool masses,,,,etc are the pitholes of brahminism…….

      ————–Don’t we kill animals to have Non-Vegetarian food? What makes you to think that animals are inferior? Is it just because they can’t voice their opinion?——–

      If we think that animals are inferior then we would have never ate them as food, humans don’t eat those things which they consider inferior to eating, infact food is the utmost sacred thing……The method of praying them before slaughter and using techniques of Halal cut is used as a respect to the animal.

      2—————- In movies, people repeatedly show fair skinned woman as beautiful. It is OK to have a hero (VijayaKanth, Rajnikanth etc…), who is dark and pot bellied, but woman should be in her 20s and fair skinned. Most of the movies are not taken by Brahmin producers? How come nobody protests? This is also discrimination—————-

      True, the same thing applies to women only fair skinned are taken in movies , TV channels, ads…cos the bahujans are mostly darked skin……You don’t find it in America where most of the blacks like Winfrey oprah, Beyonce, Wills smith, Ambre Anderson etc are there cos America believes in Inclusiveness and Affirmative actions in all spheres where once Blacks were suffering Racism and now have proved their mettle with equal representation policies……Whites changed their racist attitude to max but brahminical social order society didn’t…….

      3————— There are several cases, where Dalit Police officers, Government officers ill treat other community people. Nobody even talks about it. Do you think, all our Dalit Officers are fair and righteous? Yet, you never hear complaints.———

      All officers are not fair ………True officers never do it and I know many of them who are loyal and in your case I would ask do these officers don’t register a case of rape, or have they sold the land given by government to other or have they not utilized even 5% of the amount assigned to them for your development, have they rejected loan cos you are from low caste, have they not provided toilets in your Hostel, have they not supplied food for students etc etc…….There are almost 99% from various so called uppercaste unitedly do discrimination to even dalits who have reached higher beurocracy like judge, IAS, Proffesors, Scientists etc due to their caste disease……

      4)————–There are many cases, where Dalit boys eve tease girls. Parents are afraid, because if you go to Police station, it always leads to untouchability cases. Nobody will talk. Obviously people like KV Thomas who sit in America do not need to face this. So, he can write and bitch whatever he wants and instigate people. These people are good in talking about others, but never introspect————-.

      Eve teasing is really bad and the dalits women are more vulnerable as these section of women mainly undergo physical/sexual assault. Dalit women are paraded naked in even city like Mumbai…. But what you forgot to mention is does only dalit boys eve teas girls…no its because evey stupid man does it and you know it well but what bothers is , is it okay to get eve teased by some rich, looking uppercrest/caste boys in high end cars/bikes but when poor dalits living in slum does it becomes offensive as they are of low level and how dare a low caste tease me…..even teasing is divided here…… Very silly reason to say that Parents are afraid to go to police station….cos it leads to untouchability….infact its stupidity to relate eve-teasing to untouchability……. …..Does the eve teaser complain that she didnt allow to touch cos he is untouchable….

      —————-Caste is not discrimination, but it is about identification and about faith. Don’t we have last names like Smith (Smith work), Johnson (Priest), Clark (clerical work) etc… in western world? What is wrong if people in India use Thevar, Chettiar, Gounder etc…———-

      Caste is the root for discrimination, its about superiority identification under brahminical faith disease which upholds it. Western world people have no caste discriminaton don’t keep caste name and in their culture dignity of labour is there and a Smith could become Anderson etc and they don’t marry among only smith based on your perceived caste notion…A Johnson is not superior to Clark nor Smith but here the surnames indicate the caste and a Chettiar is infamously superior to gounder….The varnashram disease upholds it

      ————No caste is superior and if it is understood, it is not a problem. Problem is because of socio-economic differences and it gets manifested in the form of discrimination.———-

      - Yes the so called upper caste brahminical society should first understand that they are not superior and others not lower , but their religious text and their brahmanwaad mentality always wants to be superior…….the social condition is directly in proportional to the economic condition in India….The so proclaimed twice born are the resource looters and have deprived Entire India in the name of Varnashram….

      India had Buddhist universities before American and Europeans started wearing proper clothes, where they have reached toway due to their equality and where India is …..cos the brahminical social order never let the bahujans to educate, the baniya’s looted the money and weak Kshatriyas let every invader to rule us……….thats why we have Billionaires Baniyas and the maximum Bahujans under poverty……..

    • senthil says:

      Excellent reply ramani.. who built the house which nilavai selvam lives? or meena kandhasamy lives? Who is cleaning the septic tanks in the houses of meena kandhasamy and nilavai selvam? Who is cleaning the streets where they live?

      They use dalits for all their works, and then project themselves as fighting for cause of dalits.. This mockery has to be exposed, and the ulterior designs of people like meean kandhasamy and nilavai selvam should be brought out..

      Nilavai selvam had already exposed himself who he is by his hatred towards idol worship.. and it is better for him to look back at the brutal history of his own masters..

  15. SS says:

    Hindus are hypocrites to the core. they are even worse than chameleons in changing colours. The reason behind this psyche is the Brahmanism which is corrupt to the core. Brahmans are the root cause of all our woes, social, political and economical as well. Casteism is their brainchild and they are the main nurser of this worst kind of discrimination in the world. It is even worse than racism!

    Judiciary of India is composed of 99% of General caste people and 75% are Brahmans out of them. What justice can you imagine from this judicial system?

    OBCs are the main nurtures of Brahmanism. they must wake up and must be made feel that they are the Shudras so that they can take on the Brahmanism.

    Ms. Meena Kandasamy is not being prosecuted for her translation rather she is being condemned for an attack on the Brahmanism.

    And judiciary is hand in gloves with the Brahmans as they are majority in the judicial system.

    • Ramani says:

      Hello SS, you seem to be ignorant of many beliefs in Hinduism.

      Tamil Nadu politics has shifted to OBCs in the last 50 years. Either by compulsion or by choice. Even Jayalalitha does not promote Brahmins in her party. Every country has certain beliefs, and in India majority happens to be Hindus. But Hinduism allowed other religion to coexist for 1000s of years (Jain, Buddhism, Muslims, Christianity, Jews etc…). No other country has so much freedom to practice religion like in India.

      You seem to be ignoring the facts in other countries. There has been violence in UK and Australia against Asians. Hitler killed millions (not thousands) of jews, though Germans and Jews belong to White race. Iraq and Iran have been fighting over years over supremacy of races (Shia and Sunni). In Africa, blacks have been killing other black races, in millions. North Korea and South Korea has been killing each other for years. Same goes for Vietnamese. There has been recorded incidences where Japanese went for massacre against Chinese in 2nd World War. Compared to this, the issues you see in India are less. Having differences within a country is not a new thing. Basically Socio economic differences manifest in the form of race, caste, religion etc… Human beings always compare and you can’t stop it. Do you know people from NorthEast India is made fun of in Delhi? Is it to do with caste?

      Atleast in India, you have a President who is a woman. We had Muslim Presidents. We had a Dalit President. Our PM is a Sikh. Our Defence Minister is a Christian. We have many IAS/IPS officers who are from Dalit background. We had Dy PM from Dalit community (Jagajivan Ram). So, what else people like Meena want?

      Though writers like Meena crib about caste atrocities, in recent TN elections, people have voted against caste based parties (VCK, KMK,PMK) and lost badly.

      Caste is a tag. If you say, you are a Brahmin, you are used to certain food habits, certain marriage rituals etc… Same goes for Gounder (Western region), Thevar (Southern Region), Vanniar (Northern Region) etc…Within India, we have regional differences, because you come from certain area. Similarly, each caste has certain beliefs, food habits, ritual habits based on their profession and the region they belong to. If caste is an issue, then let us not call Tamilians, Telugiites, Marathiis etc…Let us go one step further and call ourselves, Global citizens. Why do you say you are an Indian? Why do you hesitate to throw away the tag of Tamilian? or INdian?

      Talking about Judiciary, again you are ignorant. We had a Dalit Judge in Supreme as Chief Judge. Recently one state (Andhra or Karnataka) had a Dalit CJ. Unfortunately, both were indulging in corrupt practices and bringing disrepute to their community.

      All castes are equal. But we should not allow writers like Meena, who are hell bent on creating differences, because they need that to survive.

      • Sahaa says:

        All castes are equal. But we should not allow writers like Meena, who are hell bent on creating differences, because they need that to survive.//////////////////////

        Mr.Ramaniji,

        Not equal. Each caste is unique among everyone. Equally important and not equal.

        Meena is a business maker, so don’t worry about her blabberings.

      • Naveen says:

        @Ramani
        —-But Hinduism allowed other religion to coexist for 1000s of years (Jain, Buddhism, Muslims, Christianity, Jews etc…). No other country has so much freedom to practice religion like in India…..

        Which Hinduism you are talking about, first do you know the meaning of word Hindu, you would not find it in any so called sacred text,,,,,I bet you don’t know cos,,it means Robber called by Arabs……India was mainly Shramic – both Jains and Buddhism has flourished here until the decline started due to the cunning techniques of Brahmins which made India suffer from poverty…..Buddhist had world renowned universities which gave education for all but Brahmins looted and enslaved the bahujans,,,,,,,,Read “Revolution and Counter Revolution in ancient India for facts”….No other country and religion treats its so called religious people inhumane than the brahmanwaad,,,,,,,,,dalits are not allowed to enter temple and if entered not allowed to be preist or touch diety…..

        ————-There has been violence in UK and Australia against Asians. Compared to this, the issues you see in India are less.—–

        The wars and genocides you have mentioned existed and affected people badly for a shorter number of years and people changed but the brahmanwaad war has been contiounsly killing, depriving people from 2500 years in the name of dharma disease….There has been worst violence going on in India every day in the name of caste which obviously you are blinded cos you don’t want to knw truth. Or simply you consider it as dharma of brahminism to discriminate….

        —–Atleast in India, you have a President who is a woman. We had Muslim Presidents. We had a Dalit President. Our PM is a Sikh. Our Defence Minister is a Christian. We have many IAS/IPS officers who are from Dalit background. We had Dy PM from Dalit community (Jagajivan Ram). So, what else people like Meena want?—-

        Yes there is a President who is a women then do you think that entire Indian women have got liberated……….Social Myopia…

        ——————We had a Dalit Judge in Supreme as Chief Judge. Recently one state (Andhra or Karnataka) had a Dalit CJ. Unfortunately, both were indulging in corrupt practices and bringing disrepute to their community——–

        - The Supreme Court CJI was not following corrupt practice but has openly declared his assests which others have not done ….its a technique of castist people to malign dalits only because they don’t want them to be in the top position……….Regarding the CJ of Karnataka he has been under investigation but not yet proved and still works in Sikkim…….there are so many upper caste corrupt judges in Supreme court who have been removed from the post…….but never open mouth but the moment a Dalit Judge comes up use all the corruption charges and malign cos they cant convict them because it needs facts and figures which the caste prejudice cant provide…….

        • siva says:

          ya ya…u give one example of dalit becoming PM ,i can give 100 examples for a dalit raped,slaved,torturd,burned alive ….etc etc …

          then we see the problem of entry into temples etc…
          only in hinduism so , its our fundamental right …sorry…duty to convert to other religions…
          no other religion sanctioned slavery ,while our hinduism did .(refn. Nandanar’s children in google books preview pages.. )

    • senthil says:

      so how about muslims and christians mr.SS? How about communists and marxists? You are displaying extreme anti-brahminism, which is far worse than the anti-semitism displayed by nazis..

  16. VGThomas says:

    After reading Ramanai’s lengthy diatribe, one can only conclude that those who still believe in castes and maintaining such a discriminatory system fail to understand that human beings ( if created by God) are born without caste but born into caste, at least that is what their society tells them. People are born in 44 shades of the human skin. Society decides some shades are “superior” to others’ society even suggests some are considered more “beautiful” than others based on the shade of their skin. Some individuals also consider themselves closer to the “true” God than others because of being born into ( or convert ) a society with particular religious beliefs. As one who was born into a Christian family in India, I completely understand why Indian society creates individuals like Modi and other fundamentalists. As an American citizen I completely understand why the U.S. society creates fundamentalist Christians and followers of the Ku Klux Klan. Both societies allow one to believe whatever they want to believe, but both societies do not tolerate those acting on these beliefs and harming other citizens. Both societies fail in restraining these behaviors. But those of us who support people like Meena, the world over, keep assuring ourselves that compassionate and understanding human beings will one day be the only ones who will prevail and survive.

    • Sahaa says:

      But those of us who support people like Meena, the world over, keep assuring ourselves that compassionate and understanding human beings will one day be the only ones who will prevail and survive./////////

      Mr.Thomas,

      The day is going to come when the electricity and the fossil fuels going to fail and from that instance the psuedo-superficial racist ideologies originated from the Judo-abrahamic cults will disappear abrutly. In 10 years we are going to see it. I challenge this. Rootless plant species cannot survive the driest spells of the land mass. Again the Jews,Ancient Greece, Rome and ancient Bharath based on their native dharma were going to bloom.

      • Nilavai Selvam says:

        Mr. Sahaa

        Aryans are supreme beings not human beings.

        In human culture, there is no upper caste and lower caste.

    • Ramani says:

      Dear Mr. KV Thomas,

      I know about America. So, please don’t lecture.

      Most likely you are living in one of these states (California, Texas, Florida or New York/New Jersey). Have you ever noticed in these state cities, only Spanish/Mexican origin people do menial work (Janitor, Plumber, Truck Drivers and Agricultural workers etc…)? A good number of them, running into millions are illegal immigrants. Do you know why? It pays American enterprises to keep them in illegal status, so they can pay low wages, deny medical benefits etc… I am sure you would have noticed no White/Caucasians do this kind of work. Well, you may argue that you have a Black President. But Blacks have to work for their rights for centuries. Until 1960s they did not even have voting rights. They could not go to same schools like white folks. It is besides to this point that Obama is accepted, because he has education and behaves like a white man. But I admire him for reaching out there) So, have you ever protested or dared to ask your white colleagues about the treatment meted out to Spanish/Mexican people in America? Don’t you think it is discrimination? I know you will not. The moment you do, you will be shunned from your white friends who control business. Atleast, Dalits reached several good positions in India

      But, you bitch about Hinduism and India. People like you are intellectually bankrupt, morally weak and opportunistic turncoats. You get good education, good moral values in India and use that to build your dreams in US. But you bitch about India/Hinduism. Have you paid back anything to India? If you care so much, why don’t you support 2-3 Dalit children’s education?

      First up all, don’t lecture about Hinduism/India. Not because I can’t face your argument, but because I can’t stand your stupidity.

    • senthil says:

      Mr. Thomas.. then why do you people calling yourself as christians, and why did your bible divide this world in to believers and infidels?

      Why you are still keeping your christian names?

  17. Ramani says:

    There are many like Meena, who keep on picking Indian society and Hindu Society. They purposely write distorted views to gain notoriety, attention etc…

    Yes, India has several disadvantages. Hindu society has several issues. It exists everywhere else. Hitler felt Aryans are supreme. Even in so called liberal Americal white women can’t make it to power in Corporate world. It is a tough race.

    We had Muslim Presidents. We had Dalit Presidents. Our current President is a woman. We have women 4 CMs in India (Tamil Nadu, Delhi, West Bengal, Uttar Pradesh)in big states. Our current PM is a Sikh, which contitute only 2% population. Our Defence Minister is a Christian.

    Yet people like Meena talk trash. Everyone has to work hard to reach the tops. Our society never discriminated againt people Dr. Abdul Kalam, who was willing to work hard. Our society never discriminated against Ms. Mayawathi, Ms. Mamt Bannerjee who are willing to work hard.

    Just because you are a woman, just because you are a Dalit and just because you write nice english does not mean that Meena is a great writer. Out of curiosity, Western world loves movies like “Fire”, “Water” etc…Writers like Meena thrive on it.

    Meena lives in India. If she has guts, let her write one article about prejudices in UK, intolerance against Asians. Let us see whether she gets supports from her western world friends. I bet she will not. Otherwise, her source of funding will stop!

    • Arivamudhan says:

      Dear Mr. Ramani,

      There are hypocrites in my Mother Nation, who are ferocious wolves clothed in sheep skin. Such hypocrites desperately want caste system to establish their own supremacy. However, they outwardly protest against untouchability. Hitler tried openly to establish his own people’s supremacy. Ultimately, he died and justice conquered. But these hypocrites want to establish their supremacy through their craftiness and wickedness.

      # The people you have mentioned above are captivated by the craftiness of the Hindutva, the Brahmanism. They don’t know who are they?, what are they? and where are they? and why are they living? Better you educate them.

      # If this is not true, can you answer me about the atrocious activity of Hindutva organizations?. Such as, Ayodhiya Masjid annihilation and Narendra Modi’s atrocity (Godra Carnage), every day such people are persecuting Churches, Masjid and innocent Dalits? Even, ancestors of these crafty people have eliminated the Buddhists from their native land (So called Ashoka’s kingdom) in early A.Ds. You can’t deny the historical facts which show the craftiness of Hindutva. I am not speaking against the followers of Hinduism. It is their own life, who I am to condemn them? But I don’t agree with Hindutva and its philosophy of saying all Indians must observe its faith. The tragedy is that it is not imposing directly, it instructs indirectly from distant. Sometimes, it makes twisted and complex laws to impose its faith on others. Such that nobody, especially uneducated, can understand easily. This is 21st century; the veil of its craftiness must be opened and its nakedness must be exposed to the entire world. It’s time has come.
      Let us rejoice and enjoy dear my brother.

      With best regards
      Sincerely Yours

      • Sahaa says:

        Your New world Order for 21st Century starting from Illuminati is exposed or victims of such anti-terrestrial forces were exposed in the from above reply of Arivamudhan. I pity for his ignorance. Finally truth will win.Pseudo-secularist like him were the victim of the virtual political and religious platform created by Free masons.

      • senthil says:

        The real hypocrites are those hate mongers who spit hatred on caste without understanding what it is..

        Are you not attempting to claim supremacy by demonising caste? You people have no business to interfere in the caste setup, and dont have any right to abuse the castes..

    • Nilavai Selvam says:

      Dear Mr. Ramani,

      There are hypocrites in my Mother Nation, who are ferocious wolves clothed in sheep skin. Such hypocrites desperately want caste system to establish their own supremacy. However, they outwardly protest against untouchability. Hitler tried openly to establish his own people’s supremacy. Ultimately, he died and justice conquered. But these hypocrites want to establish their supremacy through their craftiness and wickedness.

      # The people you have mentioned above are captivated by the craftiness of the Hindutva, the Brahmanism. They don’t know who are they?, what are they? and where are they? and why are they living? Better you educate them.

      # If this is not true, can you answer me about the atrocious activity of Hindutva organizations?. Such as, Ayodhiya Masjid annihilation and Narendra Modi’s atrocity (Godra Carnage), every day such people are persecuting Churches, Masjid and innocent Dalits? Even, ancestors of these crafty people have eliminated the Buddhists from their native land (So called Ashoka’s kingdom) in early A.Ds. You can’t deny the historical facts which show the craftiness of Hindutva. I am not speaking against the followers of Hinduism. It is their own life, who I am to condemn them? But I don’t agree with Hindutva and its philosophy of saying all Indians must observe its faith. The tragedy is that it is not imposing directly, it instructs indirectly from distant. Sometimes, it makes twisted and complex laws to impose its faith on others. Such that nobody, especially uneducated, can understand easily. This is 21st century; the veil of its craftiness must be opened and its nakedness must be exposed to the entire world. It’s time has come.

      Let us rejoice, enjoy dear my brother.

      With best regards

      Sincerely Yours

      • Ramani says:

        Dear Mr. Nilavai Selvam,

        What happened in Gujarat is unfortunate. But if you really look at the reasons behind this, it is inevitable. Congress for years, used to appease Muslims. Muslims never benefitted, but were under the false impression that Congress protects them. In reality, Congress did nothing to improve their lives. They were used as vote banks. The resentment was building with Hindu community in a manner, they started suspecting Muslims. There was an undercurrent and exploded. After Narendra Modi became CM, there has been no violence.

        Similarly, if you notice in western TN, Gounders (I am not a Gounder) are very enterprising and peace loving people. Very cultured. But for vote bank, people like Thiruma instigated Dalit people against other castes. This vitiated the atmosphere. He encouraged Dalit boys to go after Gounder girls. If it is true love it is OK, but not instigated like this. There were many false untouchability cases, thanks to people like Meena, who portray negatively. Gounder community got upset and started organizing a party for themselves. Thiruma has done nothing to his community, other than pitting them against other community. If Thiruma is a good leader, he should help his community people study, go for good jobs and improve their standing in the community.

        Moral of the story: Every action has a reaction

        Yes, caste prejudices, religion based prejudies existed 30-40 years back. Not now. Don’t follow people like Thiruma and waste your life.

        • Nilavai Selvam says:

          Mr. Ramani

          I am a rational man and not an emotional person, one who goes after the seductive speech of the political and religious leaders. No one can influence me even Thiruma. Is it clear?

          • Dr Poovizhi Raman says:

            If you’re against caste or favoring dalits, why are we still looking percentage in every scheme that government come up with the name of dalits/other caste groups (BC/MBC/SC/ST etc)? Also Dr Ambedkar must have realized very well and incorporated few more good things in the constitution to eradicate poverty, caste et al altogether so that we may not have this kind of debate.

            Cheers.

    • dinesh kumar says:

      ramani..first of all. it is better for u if u realise that hindu society is brahmin society..some shameless people like u r using this label of hinduism to encompass the rest of us…remember that the rest of us have nothing to do with brahmins…ur so called hindu society is a brahmin society..the brahmins are 1 percnt of tamil nadu ‘s population…what meena is faced with is the hangover of some people falling for the falsehood that the brahmins and their religion are meritorious..in fact,the brahmins and their religion are as inhuman and as ungodly as anything can be devised..

      • Sahaa says:

        ramani..first of all. it is better for u if u realise that hindu society is brahmin society..///

        Can I ask in this way?

        If Hindu society is Brahmin society…. Then European and American society is controlled by the Churches and their priests and can I term their society as evangelishe society.

        Yes itis true. It is the once which is in the colonial spirit wants to destroy the Hindu or Sanadhana Dharmic society to spread their Gospels in India and non-christians nations.

        • Nilavai Selvam says:

          Then Mr. Sahaa’s your secularism is ???????????????? fake and utter deception.

          Ettu Suraikai Karikku Uthavadhu.

      • Nilavai Selvam says:

        Excellent Dinesh

      • Ramani says:

        Dinesh,

        People like you are 100% idiots. Hindus have other castes. Iyer is not superior to Dalit vice versa. Caste is a tag identity. Thats all.

        People like you get brainwashed by people like Karunanidhi. Do you know one things? Karunanidhi says that he does not believe in Hindu God, but he attends all Muslim festivals, Christian festivals. If you feel that there is no God. Period. How can you have God in Muslim religion and not in Hindu religion? Because of this double talk only, their rhetoric lost. A Brahmin like Jayalalitha is able to win over him. She may be right or wrong in her beliefs, but consistent in her beliefs.

        • Nilavai Selvam says:

          Dear Mr. Ramani

          We say that Ms. Jaya and people like you must keep hindutva at your home and worship it thousands of times in a day. We don’t bother about it. But, you should not indirectly use it as a weapon to oppress the innocent people or to establish slavery system in the society or to create communal violence or to divide the people in terms of caste. In fact, it does everything. Why don’t you raise your voice to remove the caste system from hindu text books, Manusmirthi, Bhaghavatgeethta ect.

          • Ramani says:

            Dear Mr. Nilavai Selvam,

            Agreed that people should not use Hindutva to oppress some section of people. Perhaps few people do it, but it does not mean that Hindutva is completely bad.

            Similarly, would you agree, people should NOT use draconian laws like “Untouchability act” “Dowry Harassment act” to settle scores. It does happen. There are so many false cases foisted in recent times. Obviously, people get upset.

            In relation to Meena, yes she does articles and books to create friction between communities, because she likes to keep it that way. It is an easy weapon like false “Dowry harassment” case etc…

        • dinesh kumar says:

          ramani, please do not continue existing in a make-believe world. i will tell you about myself and my community. within my community, an extended set of people have one god..though all of us are the same community, different groups have different temples, there is no brahmin in this system. the brahmin was able to gain employment in the urban and cosmopolitan ambience of the city, in the old days and now. ultimately, the people realised that the brahmin is a gigantic sham, and he gives the people an artificial peace, he stokes their materialism by promising all types of sacrifices that will get this wealth, get that problem solved etc..the brahmin is the ultimate quack in the world.having had no land and no profession, the brahmin found that he could make a living by peddling quick remedies. the people are slowly led to disuing their nature-given brain and are locked in fear. the cycle continues..slowly, those people who did not belong to this materialistic orgy were labeled as untouchables, and our country lost all hope..then, nature provided us with the reformers..who have made us realise that rational thinking and progress is the ultimate goal of a human being. the force of progress will destroy the sickness of the sacrifice peddler sooner or later..that is the will of nature..nature will not want its children to be idiots who think shouting some verse will gain progress..the day that everyone gets to read the vedas, they will realise the extent of the ride they have been taken by the brahmins.

  18. Ramani says:

    We become stereo type, when you start abusing our society. We exaggerate one or two incidences and build our hypothesis around that. Dalit discrimination and Women discrimination get lot of attention, because of vote banks. In fact, there are many more issues, which never get noticed.

    All our Tamil movies, systematically show dark woman as ugly. Don’t we have black woman who is beautiful? Did any of these feminists protested this? All Tamil movies make innuendos about transsexual genders. Did any of these feminists protest? All Tamil movies make fun of dwarfs. Our cruelty to animals don’t end. It goes on…I am sure it hurts them as well.

    A recent trend is to attack Hindu system, because people don’t protest too much. Mira Nair took many movies indirectly criticizing Hindu beliefs and cluture. I bet she can never make a movie criticizing Christian beliefs and screen it western world. These people are willing to sell their own community plight to outside world and make money. They claim themselves as Feminists, Provoking thinkers, Social reformers etc…

    While Meena vehemently protests, does she question the abuses done by her own Dalit community members? Until recently, only Dalit IAS/IPS officers sons and daughters used to avail the quota system, depriving the chances of their own community members? There are so many reverse prejudice cases reported by Dalit Government Officers.

    People like Meena blindly criticize (perhaps to get attention), while blissfully ignoring the mistakes done by her own community. A good critique should not be biased.

  19. Ramani says:

    I have a question to our Dalit friends. We obtained freedom 1947. We have the quota system for about 60+ years. Rather than criticizing other castes and our Hindu society, why don’t you focus inwards and improve yourself? Don’t we have enough Dalit community IAS and IPS officers in Tamil Nadu today? Don’t we have enough Dalit community School Teachers in our Schools and Educational Institutes? Don’t we have enough enough Dalit community Government Officers in Tamil Nadu? Improve yourself in Knowledge, Economy and in Literature. You will get the respect in Society.

    Every society has its own prejudices. If it is not for caste, you will have something else. Today we live in a global world. If you are blocked in TN, you can go outside and pursue your dreams. You have access data like any other community. You have equal law like anybody else. Why do you keep harping on things you don’t have? Look at things what you have…

  20. Ramani says:

    I come from western Tamil Nadu. True, caste prejuidices existed in 1960s and 70s. But nowadays, people live in harmony, except for some minor incidences. In fact, with the increasing violent methods of Dalit based parties, forced other castes like Kongu Vellalars to form their own party. If Meena can speak for Dalits, others also have an equal right to protect their community. In fact, media (Print, TV and Movie) give distorted pictures for their own gains. Movies repeatedly show landlord in 1960s, whereas no practice exists today. They like to give sensational news to increase their business. Recent example is Dhanush movie. Knowingly, they inserted those controversial scenes about Gounders to create a sensation. Once the Gounder community protested, they withdrew, but achieved what they wanted. Free advertisement…

    In reality, there are many cases, where Dalit boys eve tease other community girls. Thanks to encouragement from Dalit based parties like DPI. In some cases, they are encouraged to love other community girls for the sake of obtaining wealth. There was a recent case, wherein a Dalit boy loved a girl (A College Owner) from outside and eventually a leader known to Meena brokered for a fee of few crores. This is not the way to fight for social justice. There are several false untouchability cases in recent times.

    If Meena and her supporters are sincere, they should talk about reverse discrimination also. In Tamil Nadu, dowry cases and untouchability cases are abused a lot. People take this draconian law to terrorize.

    Discrimination in any form, including reverse discrimination is bad.

    • raja says:

      Thanks Ramani.. The Thiruma gang had openly making statements in thondamuthur against the kongu vellalars.. “kattuna gounder ponnathan kattuvaen.. vettuna goundan kaiya vettuvaen” (In english: i will marry only gounder girls.. i will cut off gounder hand)..

      Due to this, there was tense situation, and police has to arrest those thiruma gang.. If the same had happened in the south, the reaction would have been different..

      But Meena Kandhasamy would never know of these.. what matters to her is to utilise her english skills, to write fictions about our society, and earn money there.. and we could see that in this article too..

      When Meena Kandhasamy wrote this translation, she should be 21 yr old i think.. barely crossed the teenage.. what level of knowledge would she had about our society at that age.. (and Even at the present age?..)

      • dinesh kumar says:

        raja…there are militants on all sides…if u want to pretend that one side is made of doves and the other side is made of sharks..the you are unfit.some of us are landed and some of us are workers on that land.if the owner of the land wants to believe that he has some special something that made him the owner of the land, then he is the most pitiable person on earth. because on earth, it is the toiler who is close to the creator. if somebody happens to own land, and if he wants to believe that he is special, then he is a failed human being. if u cannot contribute to creating a suitable peace, better not bring out the shamelessness of pretendin a special descent..and worst of all, the most inhuman behavior is claiming a god for oneself.only the most inhuman or most unworthy human can make such a claim.

        • Ramani says:

          Dear Dinesh,

          What is wrong somebody owns a piece of land? Obviously a section of people worked for it. It would have been jungle, and through their efforts, they converted into agricultural land. The land belongs to them, because they made an effort. If you build a house, would you keep it or not?

          If land belongs to no one, all of us should leave your places. In Americal the land belonged to local tribes, but there are no where. Europeans systematically eliminated them. People like KV Thomas talk about fairness, live in that land.

          It is not important, where we come from. It is very important, where we plan to go. After all, all castes, religions and races had some shady past. Why does someone feel bad for being a Dalit? Work hard, assert yourself in Education, Business, Sports and prove your worth.

          Do you know onething? In olympics, usually Ethiopians win Gold medal in Marathon race. They don’t complain that they are from poor nation. They don’t complain that they not well fed like Europeans. They don’t complain that they have inferior race.

          Yet they score Gold medals. Why can’t Dalits think like that? You can’t go and correct what happened? Future is in your hands and make use of it. To be fair, Laws are equal for Dalits in India. You have to work hard. You can’t keep on complaining that you have been deprived. Even within a family, one kid gets good time and other one goes through time. You can’t prevent that. But you can’t keep that argument expect some concessions throughout your life.

          Work hard and Lady luck will smile on you….

          • dinesh kumar says:

            ramani..if you worked hard and got ur land..well and good.. if someone did not work hard and got it bequeathed by some ruler, that is not well and not good..anyway, if you have the land today, what happens to the landowner is he is gripped by insecurity, as he does not want others to come up and own land, in the normal way, by working and toiling, as probably the landowner did. now, what the landowner does is he looks for a way so that the rest are forever made to work on his lands, and the rest do not start thinking about owning land. it is here that the brahmin enters. he tells tha landowner that he is special and that the rest are not special. he creates the divide. and earns his position and money. the greed and the instability of the landowner is slowly used by the brahmin to create chaos in the country. if u own land today, and if u continue to give fair salaries to the workers, and if you also toil, then you will retain the land. if you want to engage in pleasure, then you will lose touch with your profession and the other toilers will slowly start buying up your land. the problem arises only when somebody wants to own all the land..you can own it for some time, and you can engage the brahmin to confer all types of divine grace on you by performing all kinds of sacrifices, but in nature, you will retain only whatever you need and whatever you can actualy control humanly. only when there is inhuman greed, will the brahmin find occupation. if we start living rationally and in harmony with nature, the opportunities for the brahin will dry up slowly, when he will have to begin as another labourer on the land, and toil and work up.

  21. Mahendiran says:

    Can God answer the question

  22. ARUNACHALAM says:

    God only knows what caste he belongs. All these human beings are fighting to include the god as their caste. There are better things in this world. Be a human being to fellow human being. You will automatically become another god

  23. Mr.Karuppusamy says:

    In truth, western Tamil Nadu stands witness to the gruesome flesh-and-blood reality of an oppressive caste system that humiliates, subjugates, rapes and murders Dalits, most notably the Arundhatiyars, on an everyday basis./

    Ms.Kandasamy, The wolfy crying of Mr.Thirumavalavan and yourself on Panthers support exposed in this blog. The world knows how Mr.Thirumavalavan and co have segregated and Arunthathiyars(so called Dalits) against reservation among so called Dalits. The leaders of Caste Dalit were against fellow dalit from another caste. They themselves have exposed in this.

    So, it is wolfy cry from your side on the Arunthathiyars(goats), on who you are expressing the caste oppression from the other castes in western Tamil nadu. Western Tamil nadu is the home for hospitality, Justice and brotherlihood from the past. We have mutual respect and relations with other castes especially Pallars, Parayars and Arundhathiyars in our marriages and livelihood.

    Get enlightened after reading all the following articles. You should see and analyse everything in neutralway (not with yellow glasses). All the politician and media do a hype without understanding the ground reality. This is the curse for this nation and people.

    Dalit Leaders against the Arunthathiyar(Dalit) reservation
    http://arunthathiyer-tamilnadu.blogspot.com/2010/02/dalit-leaders-against.html

    Dalit leaders to challenge Arunthathiars Act
    http://www.hindu.com/2010/02/26/stories/2010022660480400.htm

    Some Dalits Are Even Less Equal
    http://roundtableindia.co.in/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1762:some-dalits-are-even-less-equal&catid=61:opinion&Itemid=56

    Who are Arunthathiyar?
    http://www.aathithamizharperavai.com/home.html

    Who are Arunthathiyar Dalit?
    http://sseg.in/web1/1/rwdt/index.php?id=9

    Suffering in silence
    http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/fline/fl2313/stories/20060714004904100.htm

    Quota for Arunthathiyars as they are “untouchables among untouchables”
    http://www.hindu.com/2010/11/19/stories/2010111964390300.htm

    • Sahaa says:

      Dalit leaders to challenge Arunthathiars Act//////////

      If this is a case then why people like Meena were not opposing Thirumavalavan
      to save the Dalit Arundhathiyars.

      People should think off about it.

  24. Dr Jayakumar.S says:

    I wish Anna is alive to non-stop blog for a year on this:

    I think, Anna want to educate people with simple stories and similes. One might ask, what kind of education Anna want to provide to people?. Yes, under the rule of British and also other foreign invasion in grater part of present India, people appears to be in salve mode instead of being master mode. Thus, I think Anna want to remind all people that they are masters and they are not slave to any one. May be, task was simple for Anna because very intelligent and gifted with lot more power in presentation. It is highly incorrect that Anna wants any in-harmony in community. In fact Anna went one side above MK Gandhi and EV Periyar by participating in official rule of the state and brings changes in democratic way. On the same light, I want to go step further on the path of Anna by saying that “Digital World provides equal opportunity to all”. In the modern connected world, race, religion, cast and gender are not coming in a way discriminate people. But people will get classified or discriminated on the basis of talent of a given individual. Thus, new problem pops up?. What we will do people fail in their exam?. May be we need to seek solution from Plato’s idea of governance. Let us not waste time by going with non rewarding things.

  25. R says:

    Can some one just furnish any existing historical proof about these two brothers?

    • RRR says:

      For what you are asking?

      You need those historical evidences to be destroyed, as it is in progress in many temples in the name of hindu endowment works renovation of temples.

    • raja says:

      As said, earlier, please go and ask any people in the western tamilnadu.. go and ask the parayar community, one of the community classified as dalit..

  26. raja says:

    Ms. Kandhasamy,

    There is a general trend that ignorants always rant.. and after reading this article, you seemed NOT an exception..

    The core issue is about historical inaccuracy in the works done by you.. the accusation is that you are fabricating history, by projecting ponnar sankar as dalit brothers, while the truth is they are kongu vellala gounder..

    To divert the core issue, you are bringing in racism and the usual bigoted arguments against caste..

    If God doesnt have any caste as you proclaim, why did Thirumavazhavan brand ponnar sankar as Dalit brothers in the first case? And why did NOT you ask him the same question when you took up the translation work.

    Does it mean, if some one is a dalit, he can do anything he wants, and persons like meena kandhasamy masquerading as intellectuals can start abusing other castes as feudal and oppressive..

    When you speak of an issue, you should have proper understanding of the issue at hand. I would like to ask you, whether you have visited any of the ponnar-sankar temples in western tamilnadu, or do you know about the ponnar-sankar story in depth. From the way you wrote the article, it is evident that you dont know anything about caste or the ponnar sankar story, and to cover this intellectual hollow, you had resorted to familiar marxist strategy.. to invoke upper-caste oppression of dalits..

    As a person belonging to the kongu vellala gounder caste, i could not but laugh at your baseless accusations. Because my kula deivam is ponnar sankar, and so as many other people in my community..

    /** He seems to want to appropriate the deity to his own caste group, and is effectively saying that it is insulting to call the deity a Dalit. */

    Another accusation, to run away from core topic.. No one needs to appropriate the deity.. Its already worshipped by so many castes, right from kurumba gounder, to nayakkars..

    /**
    The oral nature of the epic in which Ponnar-Sankar appears makes it almost impossible to ascertain either their exact caste origins, or even if they really existed historically.
    **/

    Again, i laugh at this idiotic statement.. Go to any of the dalit caste in western tamilnadu, and they will tell you who was ponnar-sankar, and the story behind. They will take you to all the places where the history happened. Probably, for persons like Meena kandhasamy, who make a living out of caste oppression, and living in UK, may find it impossible..

    /** In truth, western Tamil Nadu stands witness to the gruesome flesh-and-blood reality of an oppressive caste system that humiliates, subjugates, rapes and murders Dalits, most notably the Arundhatiyars, on an everyday basis.
    **/

    Blatant allegations.. you can be prosecuted for making such baseless allegations, without any substantiation.. and i hope, advocate loganathan will take cognizance of this article, and bring you to justice for inciting hatred and spreading canards.. Can you list out the incidents in western tamilnadu that will substantiate your argument? I bet, you would not be able to.

    /** I am outraged that an caste-Hindu is able to misuse a court of law by filing such a patently abusive and absurd case that disgraces the history and experience of being Dalit. The real offence in this instance is the litigant’s act of taking offence when something holy and venerable is identified as Dalit. I only hope that the real crime here—rampant and rabid anti-Dalit hatred—gets its due punishment.
    **/

    You are attempting to turn upon the plates upon the litigant.. it shows the typical strategy of the ideology you belong to.. Please understand, that it is you who are inciting hatred against upper caste by inciting dalits, through false propoganda of atrocity.. As i stated earlier, i request loganathan to take stock of these nonsense statements in this article, and take suo-motto action against you.

    • Nilavai Selvam says:

      Hey Mr. Maha Raja (Raja)……….

      You said, “If God doesnt have any caste as you proclaim, why did Thirumavazhavan brand ponnar sankar as Dalit brothers in the first case”.

      I would say to you that you are not right in this. In reality Mr. Thirumavazhavan says, ponnar and sankar are dead historical human beings. ponnar and sankar have been portrayed as Gods. It may be due to their goodness or they were influential people who oppressed the poor.

      So do not fight for dead people and do not try to create violence in TN in the names of dead people. Fight for the living people who are dying everyday without a single meal. Let us not trouble our mother land for dead people. Ok………..

      • Senthil says:

        I think you guys (Neo-colonialist and Pseudo-communists) are expecting for a violence, which is not at all happening in TN for last 15 years, which is needed for your growth. Violence is the fuel for pseudo-communists (Marxian ideology) and the same violence is the looting point for capitalists (Judo- Abrahamic-Anglo economic ideologies on society) and their successive power. Both favour to harvest people for evagelization. hm……

      • raja says:

        @Nilavai Selvam,

        You need not instruct us on what to do.. It is you people drag those dead people in to the issue?

        From the very tone of your comment, your background is revealed.. i would like to know, if meena kandhasamy also holds the same contempt towards the ponnar-sankar god, which nilavai selvam has..

        And is it the way that you people express your equality, by displaying your contempt? Shameful it is..

        /** Fight for the living people who are dying everyday without a single meal.
        **/

        So you dont know any other thing than fighting / killing.. for people dying without single meal, we need to give them food..

        Give me list of people & location and we would provide them the food to eat.. and i bet, you will not have any info on who actually are suffering.. bcoz, you people make living out of people’s poverty, whereas, we live with the dalits, helping them in their distress..

        Your politics and hatred had to be first fought out, before fighting any other thing

        • Nilavai Selvam says:

          Hey Mr. Raja,

          You are not capable of understanding my philosophy. The word “fighting” is written in the context which you don’t understand or it is beyond your understanding. The “fighting” word does not refer to the killing of the people with sword or arms. It is a mental fighting/intellectual fighting with your thoughts. Rather I would say, you must fight with your own thoughts and find the solutions and resolve this social evil occurring in the names of dead people. I can’t help you my dear brother. Okkk………Take care……………

    • Kalai says:

      Mr. Raja (a Kongu Vellala Gounder)

      My name is Kalaiarasu, advocate practising in Coimbatore district Court. Most importantly my community certificate bears the word “Kongu Vellala Gounder”.

      I born in Erode, Lives in Coimbatore. I think have right to reply properly according to you.

      You can laugh at anyone. It is your fundamental right.

      Read the below mentioned incidents. I mentioned only very few….

      Murder – Inter caste marriage – 07.07.2008 ..It is learnt that Chinnaraj was married to Gomathy and it was an inter-caste love marriage amid opposition, hence the suspicion. http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/12/stories/2008071251530300.htm

      The murder of K. Rathinasamy, Iduvai village panchayat, Tirupur (HE BELONGED TO Kongu Vellala Community) The mistakes, supported Dalits, escaped death on an earlier occasion (when he was attacked in 1998), supported Christians, did not respect a particular caste, opposed Hindus, got re-elected as village panchayat president, and was a communist. http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1907/19070390.htm

      Kalappatti riot, Coimbatore
      Kalapatti village of Coimbatore by the Dominant caste people of the same village. Nearly 100 Dalits houses were attacked by 200 Dominant caste using swords and other sharp and deadly weapons. Not only this they also killed the cattle of the Dalits and set fire to the cattle. They assaulted women by sexually abusing them trying to pull their sarees.

      http://www.isidelhi.org.in/hrnews/HR_THEMATIC_ISSUES/Dalits/dalits2004.pdf

      Salarappatti, Udumalpet Taluk, Coimbatore District on 18.02.2008
      The local magistrate, Mr. Chandrabose, called both dalits and non dalits for peace talks. But the higher caste people refused to allow the Dalits to drink tea with them, or use the community hall and temple . Angered, nearly 200 young and old men later entered Dalit neighbourhoods with sticks, knives and stones, attacking and brutally beating whomever they came across. As most Dalit men were at work, women, the elderly and children were the victims of their attacks.

      http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=20080328250603700.htm&date=fl2506/&prd=fline&

      http://www.franciscansinternational.org/node/2269

      The clash between Kongu Velala Gounder Peravai and Dalits witnessed attacks causing hurt, pelting of stones. Even the media personnel were attacked resulting in snatching of photography and video cameras.

      http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/23/stories/2008122353100300.htm

      The above said crimes were committed by Kongu Gounders.

      The present case is devoid of merits both facts and law.

      Mr.Loganathan can do nothing. His only option left in the case is to withdraw the case against Thol.Thiruma & Meena

      Last Monday I filed a affidavit before said court stating that I have challenge order because Mr.Loganathan failed to obtain sanction u/s 196 of Criminal Procedure Code. – http://www.facebook.com/blackkalai?sk=notes

      Mr.Paranan published a book “Ponnar Sankar – a Historical Study. He proved that story has no historical background and no evidence to show that Ponnar Shankar belonged to Kongu Velala Community. http://www.ponnarshankar.in

      Dalit Arunthathiyar communities worshipped annamars – Ponnar Sankar as their deity.

      Finally I want to say one thing. I don’t want to be a Kongu Vellala Gounder.

      According to Vedas.. Kongu Vellalar are Sutras (Suthirarkal) .. Suthirarkal means son of a bitch.

      • Sahaa says:

        Attn. KVG Certificate bearer Mr.Kalaiyarasu,

        You are changing the tracks of the discussion. Not only Arundhadhiyars many castes worship Annamars in Veerappur and no one stops it (as misunderstood by Meenaa).

        The Case is for stamping Ponnar-Sankar as dalits. First of all dalit is an unconstitutional word to use against any community, including ARUNDHADHIYARS and PARAYARS. Noone use this Marati term in Tamil nadu. thirumavalavan have to apologize before the Arudhadhiyar and Parayar friends for branding them with the alien words when they
        have their unique caste names. Then branding Ponnar-Sankar is complete wrong information and the writer and the Author should apologize publicly for hurting the people’s sentiments as they all (Ponnar-Sankar, Sambuvan, Aththai pillais) worshipped as Gods from different castes.

        Mr.Paranan is not a historian to nullify the whole history. The book of Mr.Paranan is a bunch of lies, which was written purposefully under the funding of Dravidar Kazhagam and it is not a neutral one.

        I wont defend you for saying KVG as Sutras. I don’t won’t to clarify it as the discussion is not centered on it. Also, I don’t think I have any authority on Vedas and I don’t have any knowledge to read the language it was written.

        As a KVG, I follow my tradition. Many others use this for politics, profession and make money out of it. I don’t bother about those idiots who feel ashame about their castes. We are proud to be called vellalars, as it is a farming noble profession. I would appreciate if our fellow “Murai” OR “Seer” communities like Arundhadhiyars and Parayars peoples of our region to love their profession and community and do their duties, followed traditionally by their parents. No government or politician can interfere in the traditional wisdom,unless the fellow wishes.

        It is the evagelical group which is working hard for 2 centuries to break up Arudhanthiyar and parayar communities to baptize them. Our Madurai Veeran samy will not let them to soon evagelize or to get demoralized. Gods were in our side.

        • kongu says:

          Mr. Raja (a Kongu Vellala Gounder)

          My name is Kalaiarasu, advocate practising in Coimbatore district Court. Most importantly my community certificate bears the word “Kongu Vellala Gounder”.

          I born in Erode, Lives in Coimbatore. I think have right to reply properly according to you.

          You can laugh at anyone. It is your fundamental right.

          Read the below mentioned incidents. I mentioned only very few….

          Murder – Inter caste marriage – 07.07.2008 ..It is learnt that Chinnaraj was married to Gomathy and it was an inter-caste love marriage amid opposition, hence the suspicion. http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/12/stories/2008071251530300.htm

          The murder of K. Rathinasamy, Iduvai village panchayat, Tirupur (HE BELONGED TO Kongu Vellala Community) The mistakes, supported Dalits, escaped death on an earlier occasion (when he was attacked in 1998), supported Christians, did not respect a particular caste, opposed Hindus, got re-elected as village panchayat president, and was a communist. http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1907/19070390.htm

          Kalappatti riot, Coimbatore
          Kalapatti village of Coimbatore by the Dominant caste people of the same village. Nearly 100 Dalits houses were attacked by 200 Dominant caste using swords and other sharp and deadly weapons. Not only this they also killed the cattle of the Dalits and set fire to the cattle. They assaulted women by sexually abusing them trying to pull their sarees.

          http://www.isidelhi.org.in/hrnews/HR_THEMATIC_ISSUES/Dalits/dalits2004.pdf

          Salarappatti, Udumalpet Taluk, Coimbatore District on 18.02.2008
          The local magistrate, Mr. Chandrabose, called both dalits and non dalits for peace talks. But the higher caste people refused to allow the Dalits to drink tea with them, or use the community hall and temple . Angered, nearly 200 young and old men later entered Dalit neighbourhoods with sticks, knives and stones, attacking and brutally beating whomever they came across. As most Dalit men were at work, women, the elderly and children were the victims of their attacks.

          http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=20080328250603700.htm&date=fl2506/&prd=fline&

          http://www.franciscansinternational.org/node/2269

          The clash between Kongu Velala Gounder Peravai and Dalits witnessed attacks causing hurt, pelting of stones. Even the media personnel were attacked resulting in snatching of photography and video cameras.

          http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/23/stories/2008122353100300.htm

          The above said crimes were committed by Kongu Gounders.

          The present case is devoid of merits both facts and law.

          Mr.Loganathan can do nothing. His only option left in the case is to withdraw the case against Thol.Thiruma & Meena

          Last Monday I filed a affidavit before said court stating that I have challenge order because Mr.Loganathan failed to obtain sanction u/s 196 of Criminal Procedure Code. – http://www.facebook.com/blackkalai?sk=notes

          Mr.Paranan published a book “Ponnar Sankar – a Historical Study. He proved that story has no historical background and no evidence to show that Ponnar Shankar belonged to Kongu Velala Community. http://www.ponnarshankar.in

          Dalit Arunthathiyar communities worshipped annamars – Ponnar Sankar as their deity.

          Finally I want to say one thing. I don’t want to be a Kongu Vellala Gounder.

          According to Vedas.. Kongu Vellalar are Sutras (Suthirarkal) .. Suthirarkal means son of a bitch.
          Reply

      • RRR says:

        Finally I want to say one thing. I don’t want to be a Kongu Vellala Gounder.////

        Then you should do following things,

        1. Please tear the KVG community certificate you have and please return your degree that you picked up showing your BC certificate.
        2. Please diverse yourself from your family and go out of the KVG parents.
        3. Otherwise make suicide for born as KVG.
        4. Go to Arundhadhiyar home and live peacefully with them, if they accept you.
        5. Go and practice in Erode court rather than in Coimbatore
        6. You should not goto your kuladeiva temple.

      • Sahaa says:

        Attn. KVG Certificate bearer Mr.Kalaiyarasu,

        You are changing the tracks of the discussion. Not only Arundhadhiyars many castes worship Annamars in Veerappur and no one stops it (as misunderstood by Meenaa).

        The Case is for stamping Ponnar-Sankar as dalits. First of all dalit is an unconstitutional word to use against any community, including ARUNDHADHIYARS and PARAYARS. Noone use this Marati term in Tamil nadu. thirumavalavan have to apologize before the Arudhadhiyar and Parayar friends for branding them with the alien words when they
        have their unique caste names. Then branding Ponnar-Sankar is complete wrong information and the writer and the Author should apologize publicly for hurting the people’s sentiments as they all (Ponnar-Sankar, Sambuvan, Aththai pillais) worshipped as Gods from different castes.

        Mr.Paranan is not a historian to nullify the whole history. The book of Mr.Paranan is a bunch of lies, which was written purposefully under the funding of Dravidar Kazhagam and it is not a neutral one.

        I wont defend you for saying KVG as Sutras. I don’t won’t to clarify it as the discussion is not centered on it. Also, I don’t think I have any authority on Vedas and I don’t have any knowledge to read the language it was written.

        As a KVG, I follow my tradition. Many others use this for politics, profession and make money out of it. I don’t bother about those idiots who feel ashame about their castes. We are proud to be called vellalars, as it is a farming noble profession. I would appreciate if our fellow “Murai” OR “Seer” communities like Arundhadhiyars and Parayars peoples of our region to love their profession and community and do their duties, followed traditionally by their parents. No government or politician can interfere in the traditional wisdom,unless the fellow wishes.

        It is the evagelical group which is working hard for 2 centuries to break up Arudhanthiyar and parayar communities to baptize them. Our Madurai Veeran samy will not let them to soon evagelize or to get demoralized. Gods were in our side.

      • Mr.Karuppusamy says:

        Dear Advocate Kalaiyarasu,

        Nice to see your facebook profile. Your profile shows Seeman in the photo.
        http://www.facebook.com/blackkalai?sk=notes
        Seeman blowed a jargan that he will campaign against congress in all districts. But, he didn’t went to kanyakumari districts constituencies. he avoided it because the people contesting were christians and he himself being a christian avoided it. It simply shows him pseudo-Tamil Nationalism and he exposed himself as the discriminating christian. he is suspected to be missionary.

        Such a person is in your profile photo and you may have link with him. The question here is what links you a have with him?

      • Sumathi says:

        Kalaiarasu Sir,

        Great job… keep it up… Your debate is really good…

      • raja says:

        Mr. Kalai,

        Its a pity, that being an advocate, you come with such hollow arguments.. every one can search google and present list of media articles, on caste conflict.. but media articles dont substantiate anything.. you can better come out with official statistics, as you are a lawyer..

        For your convenience, i reproduce the phrases of meena kandhasamy below..

        /** In truth, western Tamil Nadu stands witness to the gruesome flesh-and-blood reality of an oppressive caste system that humiliates, subjugates, rapes and murders Dalits, most notably the Arundhatiyars, on an everyday basis.
        **/

        she has made a very serious and provocative accusations.. she is saying that dalits are raped on a daily basis..

        Normally media articles bigoted and ideologically biased.. but even there, there is no case of dalits being raped..

        I request, Advocate Loganathan take notice of this public accusation by meena kandhasamy and take appropriate actions.. its a serious accusation to ignore..

        “Rape Accusation” is a trademark of certain vested interests and ideologists in the world in general, and india in particular.. and meena kandhasamy by making that argument has shown where she belongs to..

        /** Finally I want to say one thing. I don’t want to be a Kongu Vellala Gounder.
        **/

        There are many dhrohis in all communities.. i request you to return back your community certificate, and cancel your degree certificate (as you would certainly had got a seat with the BC quota).. The gounder community will be better off without people like you..

        /**
        According to Vedas.. Kongu Vellalar are Sutras (Suthirarkal) .. Suthirarkal means son of a bitch
        **/

        Your statement shows that you dont know even ABC of Vedas.. pls dont blabber like this..

        • Kalai says:

          Dear Raja

          The KVG community is belonged to Sutras http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongu_Vellalar#cite_note-tamilartsacademy.com-8

          As a KVG can you enter sanctum sanctorum of a temple.

          Can you deny the point that “The Shastras also proclaimed that animals excreta is superior to Shudras because drinking of cows urine would purify the person defined by the touch of Shudra. (Samvart Smriti 183).”

          http://truthofhinduism.com/hinduism/caste/hindu-religion-and-the-shudras/

          I don’t want to argue further. It is not about who is winning and losing. It is all about self respect.

          Further I don’t want to disrespect any community. Till ten years back KVG conducted their marriage with Arumaikarar. Now with Brahmins. I can’t get english translation. read it in tamil. http://www.priyamudanvasanth.com/2010/04/blog-post_06.html

          • Sahaa says:

            Mr.Kalai,

            Please see the same wiki link that you have given. It is given that the KVGs were the lineage of Chera kings.

            Cow urine Amruth. It removes all the sins of all the people. It repairs DNA damage. 10 Patents were there for cow urine.

            Today Arumaikkarars were scarce and the conducting 3 days of 1.5 days marriage with Arumais is costly affair. Earlier before Arumaikkarars and Navithars, brahmins were doing the marriage. Because of the bad incident happened in a marriage brahmins asked Navithars to proceed the marriage. So, it not new to have brahmins.

    • John says:

      After rereading your comments several times, Mr. Raja, I would say you are ranting yourself. Your comment ” false propoganda of atrocity” is so patently false, in both well documented history, current events and personal experience of so many many Dalits that you, Sir, are clearly the ignorant one.

      • raja says:

        I had asked people to furnish the documented history of western tamilnadu.. if you have any proof, pls provide here..

  27. Nilavai Selvam says:

    Hey Meena! You are an atom bomb to all the idols and idolaters. Let us destroy idols, for they can only damage the dignity of everyone.

    • Senthil says:

      Mr.Selvam… You are trying to show an open anti-democratic hatred of destroying idols…… Meena is not moderating after these open hatred, as she like this hatred to be spread.

      • Nilavai Selvam says:

        U can’t understand this philosophy unless you cast out those practices. I am not an Anti-Democratic, whoever fights in the name of dead human beings are Anti-Democratic. I work for my nation.

      • Nilavai Selvam says:

        I work for the living people. Not for those dead and deeply buried.

        • Sahaa says:

          Then you should also spell words about Jesu and Allah,who where also deep deeply buried, in a public forum.

          I have a doubt, then why EVR, Anna,Kamaraj and all other deeply buried were in form of idols and these poor politicians giving respect twice a year. You also don’t have guts to speak about it na, then why you are so interested in demolishing the other idols ya.

          It is a long corroding question yaar. Please answer.

        • raja says:

          From your hatred on idol worship, you have exposed who you are.. i dont want to deviate the debate in to religious conflict..

          Stick to the core of the debate..

    • raja says:

      do you mean the sivakasi “Atom Bomb”.. why the hell you should bother about idols & idolaters.. so for you, destroying idols, destroying idolaters, are the progressive ideals.. well, i wish you blabber more and more to expose yourself, so that the force behind you will be known to the world..

      I did a background check on meena kandhasamy, and i could identify who was sponsored her to translate the book, the motive behind it..

      and now, with people like you exposing, the association meena kandhasamy has is coming to open..

      Please comment more, Nilavai selvam..

      • Nilavai Selvam says:

        Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh……..my dear brother. Don’t be a emotional person. Rather, be a rational man. Then, you will understand the things very clearly.

  28. Senthil says:

    Ms.Kandhasamy to your question Does God Have A Caste?

    Yes, all castes in Tamil Nadu (atleast in TN) even through out India the Gods have castes. Because mostly the forefathers of each castes were worshipped us their protecting deities for their community. Sudalai madan, Karuppannar, Kannimar, Ayyanar, Perumals, etc. In that line our elder brothers Annamars also fall in that line. We have 100s of Annamar temples in Western Tamil nadu and they were worshipped by Kongu Vellala Gounders as Kuladeivam. As this story involves characters from different castes like Paraiyars, Chettiyars, Cholia Vellalars, Kulalars, Arundhathiyars, Thotti, etc. counting more than 10 castes worship Annamars as deities as these young brothers fought for righteousness of their livelihood in their period.

    You should not get provoked by the summon. You should talk after known the truth. Talking and making propagandas for political hype is not good and fair.

    I wonder how did you come across the oppression of Arundhathiyars in western Tamil nadu. Western Tamil nadu is the classical example for mutual respect and companionship of all castes with their respectable duties. The entry of British and their ryotwari and Zamindari have created havoc in the mutual relations between castes in particular pockets. I accept it.

    Some of the bad examples were hyped and made live for decades together, by the writers like you, Media, politicians of DK roots, shadow working organisations of alien origin, etc.

    I strongly suggest you to think and analyse before shedding words. Please don’t speak with pre-determined ideologies.

    • Sinchan Mitra says:

      Oh yes, in Hinduism even the Gods have caste. Right! And Hinduism is the greatest religion of the world! We are all proud to be Hindus!

      As an Indian and a Hindu, let me say SHAME on us. Shame on us for trying to sweep centuries of discrimination and dehumanization of Dalits under the carpet and pretending that the caste system was a victimless crime. Imagine Western people trying to pass off the Atlantic slave trade as not a big deal and say black people exaggerate these things! People like you accuse the author of coming with a “pre-determined ideology”. Your pre-determined ideology is a lot more shameful than the author’s- you should be ashamed of yourself- only white supermacists in America make arguments like yours.

      Let me quote Babsaheb Ambedkar on caste

      “The Hindu Civilisation…. is a diabolical contrivance to suppress and enslave humanity. Its proper name would be infamy. What else can be said of a civilisation which has produced a mass of people…. who are treated as an entity beyond human intercourse and whose mere touch is enough to cause pollution?”

      There are any number of horrendous instances of discrimination against Dalits by caste Hindus such as yourself even TODAY- forget about what happened in History.

      • Senthil says:

        Mitraji,

        As an Indian and a Hindu, let me say SHAME on us. //

        Hindustani or Bharathvasi is the only regional identity. Nothing is there like Hindu.

        I am proud to be called with my traditional profession name as my caste. People like you create the inferiority complex in the name of caste discrimination.

        If I or anyone felt ashame to be called with my or their caste name as discrimination, then in the modern world also the people should felt ashamed for finishing their studieswith lass 10,class 12, Under graduation, Post graduation or even doctorate. Then in working atmosphere one as pune,another as assistant,another one as Manager and one as Chairmen, directors etc. Do these people felt ashamed. Every one feel
        themselves unique in this.

        And so, I also feel every community in the village following their own profession is unique they should be encouraged for their uniqueness and not made to ashamed of.

        Nature is discriminative, all fingers were not equal. But everything is unique and its given equal importance and not identical or same role. Discrimination is universal law of nature, which will ever exist. It exist in corporate, it exists with government, it exists with land, water everywhere.

        India’s diversity rose because of natural discrimination.

        So, try to promote discrimination with uniqueness and with humanitarian and mutual respects.

  29. Dr Poornima Kandasamy says:

    Dear Ms. Kandasamy,

    As those commented earlier to this article, I kindly request you to restrain publishing supporting articles in public forum while the matter in court. Also on a lighter note, why article going towards Dalits and not inline with the case?

    Cheers,
    Dr Poornima

  30. nirvana says:

    educate people and in the long run these cast system will be finished by it self…government has already provided so much quota and reservation for discriminated castes….education will solve every thing…….

    • Senthil says:

      We must salute lord Maculay, to introduce british education in India and make the Indians physically Indian and mentally Christians… I hope we must be loyal to our colonial masters, as a loyal servants…

  31. Nerus says:

    I take exception to the word “Braminization” in the sentence “The co-opting and appropriation process of Hindutva-ization/Brahminization/Sansritization swallowed a lot of our village/regional/folk deities into the burgeoning Hindu pantheon, and Dalit deities were ascribed caste-Hindu origins because the casteist mindset could not accept the Dalit in the role of a valiant hero.”

    Although this particular article referred to a Kongu-vellalla Gounder, the author has taken yet another cheap shot at the numerically small Brahmin community in Tamil Nadu. What do Brahmins have to do with this article?

    While fighting one form of discrimination (against Dalits), the author has seen fit to add to another form of discrimination (against Brahmins)

    • Senthil says:

      @Nerus
      The author is an evangelicher with the face of dalit movement and womens right activist. These people were the neo-colonial and neo-evagelical people of the modern world.

    • raja says:

      Nerus,

      The identity “Dalit” is a recent word coined during 19th century.. there is no such identity before.. and there is no question of dalit god or upper caste god.. people do not refer them with identity, but it is the educated intellectuals, who are obsessed with these identities..

      Meena Kandhasamy perhaps dont understand that Tirumavazhavan was head of just one community called Parayars.. he is NOT the leader for all dalit communities..

      So far, these people have isolated brahmins and abused them, without any challenge.. but now she has rubbed a wrong part..

  32. Mitra says:

    The protections for freedom of speech is quite weak in the Indian Constitution relative to the United States – however this case is simply one of a publicity seeking judicial magistrate in the lower courts. There are many such cases- think of the Khusboo affair. Recenty one lower court judicial magistrate even accepted a case that argues Digvijay Singh should be charged with sedition because he abused Baba Ramdev! I would like to express my hearfelt support for you and congratulate you on fighting for a good cause. I am sure the uppper courts will throw this case out with the contempt that it deserves – I am sorry that you have to face this harassment.

    • Ramani says:

      Dear Mitra,

      What good luck you are talking to Ms. Meena Kandasamy?

      In fact, she should be tried for raking up an unnecessary controversy and disrupting social harmony. It is understood that if someone believes that Jesus Christ is Christians god, no body questions. Similarly Allah is Muslim’s God. Can people like Ms. Meena Kandasamy question this belief? I don’t think there is any issue if people of Dalit origin pray to Ponnar-Sankar. The issue is when writers like Ms. Meena Kandasamy write some rubbish, purposely to create some controversy

      - If Meena is a good investigative journalist, she should have brought some evidence that Ponnar-Shankar are gods to Dalits (or any other community)?
      - Can she produce some archealogy proof? Culverts? Olaichuvadi?
      - How come no other writer in the past talked about it?

      It is just that Thiruma and Meena like to create controversy and thrive on it? They like to insult other community people. If she has guts, she can write the same about Christian Gods and Muslim Gods?

  33. ravi says:

    Meena should understand that the First Amendment of the US constitution provides a stronger protection to freedom of expression than what is available under the Indian Constitution. She should understand that under law to prove that a person has committed a crime, the intention to commit a crime and the motive should also be established. Doing that in this case is not easy and from that angle the case is weak. Finally the caste of Ponnar-Shankar is incidental to the main work and that is NOT the core theme of the speeches or the text. So it can be argued that the quotation are taken out of context and blown out of proportions. If Dalits beleive that Ponnar-Shankar were from dalits that per se was not a motive to disturb communal harmony.
    Tirumavalavan and Meena should take a uniform view in this and leave it for lawyers to defend them in courts.It is better to avoid expressing views in public fora.

  34. ravi says:

    It is a legal issue and approach it that way.She should do that instead of diverting the issue.Check with lawyers whether such accusations will stand scrutiny of the courts. There are two issues here : freedom of expression and writing something that goes against accepted views/popular belief.Freedom of expression is a fundamental right but there are limits to that.Writing something that goes against accepted views/popular belief is covered under freedom of expression but there are limits to that. Under the law, the person who has filed the case has to explain that Tirumavalan spoke with an ulterior motive in mind and so did the translator who did the translation. Frankly speaking a professional translator cannot be held responsible for views expressed in the original work as translator does a job and is not an author..It is for the publisher and author to check, verify and vouch for the accuracy of the material.So Meena cannot be accused of doing anything wrong with ulterior motive or intentionally unless it is argued that she agreed with that view fully. It looks like she has the same views. So she has to argue that she had no intention to violate the law, to distrub communal harmony and she should use the fundamental right- freedom of expression in her defense.But I think she is too emotional to think on those lines and thinks that this is yet another non-dalit vs. dalit issue.This may not be right response because she is facing a case in a court of law where debating issues purely on legal basis will be necessary and desirable. She should separate the issues and approach this is as a legal issue. Otherwise she will end up shooting at her feet by herself.Since she is based in UK she should seek exemption from appearing in person before the court. She should try to get the proceedings at the lower court stayed by High Court.
    Ashis Nandy faced a similar situation and he got the proceedings stayed and finally the
    case at the court in Ahemadabad was dismissed by another court(SC?). She should stop responding in public and in the web or through media and seek the best legal advice in the issue.It is better for her not to say anything on this and instead her lawyers should put up a strong defense in the court and seek a stay at the high court on the proceedings.I hope she will understand why this is the sane approach. Having said all this, let me state that I may not agree with all views of Meena and write this because I respect her freedom of expression.
    Historians accept diversity in views and in such matters why should something should be taken as the one and only truth unless it is proved that that is the only truth. Popular belief may be right or wrong and to question that is a fundamental right.Atheists have the same rights as theists have.It is as simple as that.

  35. Thillai Kumaran says:

    Ancient Tamilnadu did not have caste discrimination. It was due to Jain/Budhism/Brahmana sects from north India. Please read this paper from Dr. S. Palaniappan, where he has refuted arguments against “Caste existed in ancient Tamil nation”.

    http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publications/journals/ijjs/file46109.pdf

    Thillai
    San Jose, California

    • raja says:

      The caste in its present form was a british creation.. the pre-british indian society had a dynamic jaathi setup..

  36. Raju Arumugham says:

    Meena, I suggest not to engage in public debates till the case is over. The petitioner can never prove anything whatever he says are hear-says and whatever we say may also hear-says. CN Annadurai should have been issued with death sentence for writing “Kambarasam” against Rama and Seetha who are hindu deities. I am sure you will come out of the case spotless with great pride of winning the petitioner. There are millions of stories for and against such belief system which court can never handle. it goes against fundamental rights ‘right to express’. The matter is subjudice if we discuss matter here you will get provocations for further allegations by throwing words in your mouth. we know some bastards have done this for centuries, these were the people who tested good or bad scriptures by Fire test and water test ( analvaatham and punalvaadham). Just quietly win the case. They don’t know they are caught in a web of desecration of foundational beliefs. It is beginning of death knell for Hinduism.

    • Ramani says:

      Anna Durai and Karunanidhi and Periyar could say anything about Hindu Gods. Karunanidhi critized Hindu Gods and beliefs in a filthy manner. But he would attend Muslim festivals and Christian festivals. Every religion has some beliefs, which may become out of date. If you consistently say, you don’t believe in God it is correct. Such is the legacy of people like Karunanidhi who only criticized Hindu God

      If Periyarists are courageous, they should criticize foolish beliefs in other religion too. Can they?

  37. abu says:

    I wish to state a few things to mr. p.b.shankar.. well sir,,i am a follower of meena kandasamy’s writings. she is one person who fights for a cause. well now i just want mr. shanker to answer two things logically and pragmatically… Have u seen atleast one of the millions of gods? where did u get these myths from? any authenticity?.. To me the words and deeds of evr , and anna is much greater compared to sankaracharya… a man who considers his shit to be… HOLY SHIT…. and now i find the same difference between you and meena kandasamy… she is fighting for a good cause and you at the basement with your HOLY SHIT.. people like you with your myths and undefined logistics have taken our nation towards a solid deteriorating state instead of development… To me Dalits are super humans… they do things that u supremacists cannot do.. and now I feel and lot of us feel that Dalits need not do things which you do not will to do… Treat humans as humans with humanity.. you will be a great man and a God in later years… Now do not tag Gods with castes… Let the myths get defined themselves…Let people like thirumavalavan and meena kandasamy win their causes… human community will advance towards a racist and caste free world.. and ultimately a peaceful world

    • Ramani says:

      Abu, you should never disrespect anyone’s beliefs. Would you like if your origins are questioned? Would someone like if their parents origins are questioned in a public forum?

  38. Malarvizhi Jayanth says:

    With Tass Holmes and Tamilselvan, I add my affirmation that I admire and support Meena’s work and believe that dalit unity can threaten the structures of caste.
    @P.B. Shankar Your comment suggests that a 27-year-old woman should not be critical of a 5000 year tradition of discrimination. Yes, Meena is far too young and liberated to be able to compromise with social injustice. I am glad that she is.
    Yes, all our names and social locations have been formed by the caste system. Some of us are involved in the critique and dismantling of this system – and we stand by her.
    All the gods have caste. How interesting. Does that mean that social injustice has divine sanction? If that is so, do you believe that this case is justified? I would love to hear more from you.
    @Anver Sadath Yes, the caste system is a reality. I don’t think any of us would disagree with you on that.

    • Senthil says:

      When Jews Bigotry, Greecian pride and Sophistry and Roman pomp bowed before cross, when nations both leaned and rude, have since been converted by the gospel, why should the evangelizing of India, be thought a thing incredible….. We should use all opportunities and tactics to demoralize hindoostan…… Meena Kandasamy were the Neo-colonial, neo-evagelical free Masonry working with the face of women right activist. It is difficult for herself to understand that she is a free mason. Her emotions were used by alien shadow agencies and were using her against her land…. brilliant masters… poor victim… please sympathize for her ignorance…

  39. Pindiga says:

    The fellow who petitoned the court might have no head. But what about the court that entertains such Cases.

  40. Rajesh Sugathan says:

    The Hindu Gods did not have caste but I suspect that the gods did. The people of India have castes too. Can we run away from that fact ? The lawyers who fight for your cause in court will tell you that among other things.

    “Loganathan claims that Ponnar and Sankar belong to a Kongu Vellala Gounder subcaste” Can you prove in court that Ponnar-shankar (Annanmar swamy) belonged to the Dalit community ?
    “The oral nature of the epic in which Ponnar-Sankar appears makes it almost impossible to ascertain either their exact caste origins, or even if they really existed historically.” ok, So why were they said to be Dalit gods by you ? Did you do any research on this or were you not aware of the casteist nature of these gods ?

    “Neither the original Tamil speech, nor my translation and endnote had a deliberate intent to offend any community” Well, its looks like it has caused some offense. So what are you going to do about it ?
    This article does seem to to be heavily allinged towards the Dalit community and the Dalits do have their gods. This article clearly is a knee jerk reaction from an emotional standpoint because someone has taken a stance against your work . I dont think that trying to sling mud on that person is right thing to do here. It might garner much needed support from your dear, near and ‘chadi-buddies’ . I would rather focus on the facts at hand.
    Prayer will help. But please pray to the GODS and not to the gods because the gods have caste.

  41. Anver Sadath.B. says:

    Hope Meena have something to say on Mr.P.B.Shankar’s writing. Let the debate happens positively. Caste system is not a myth. It is a reality, atleast in India. It is everywhere in different modes.

  42. P B Shankar says:

    Dear Ms Kandaswamy,

    Yes, in Hindu tradition, Gods do seem to have a caste. Perhaps you are too young and very much liberated to sit on a pedestal and judge Hinduism as it is most convenient to you. There is nothing wrong in you being young or liberated.

    I take it from your name that you have some sort of Tamil roots, of course a great language and a great culture; no arguments there. I also suggest that you take a good look at what the Dravida movement did to your state as a whole. Everything that your state sells by way of tourism came from a time when caste system was oppressive. EVR, Anna Durai, and the latest crime lord Karunanidhi have all done little to the heritage of TN despite spending crores on TV sets, washing machines etc… Your leaders have justified ‘Gain without pain’. ‘Amma’ too dare not do anything different.

    I am deviating from the point. Do look more deeply into original Hindu modes of living, thought and prayer. There is something called Satvika, Rajasa and Thamasa, in ways of life and worship. Almost all Gods were caste bound. To quote an example, the divine of all temples, Mookambika, where Sankaracharya himself did the ‘Prathista Karma’, has a ‘Moolasthana’ up the mountain where you can make an offering of alcohol and meat

    Please remember that you are criticizing ‘Sanatana Dharma’, just about 5000 years old. Even your name comes from it. I mean no offence, please. Cheers.

    Regards,

    Prithvi Shankar.

    • Muthu says:

      Mr. Prithvi, I pity people like you who are just ignorant about everything and still talk out of the hat as if you are some ‘மெத்தப்படித்த மேதாவி’. You are trying to imply as if all great historical monuments in Tamil Nadu are a product of caste-based society. Since you are an outright idiot when it comes to Tamil Nadu history let me enlighten you. Brahminical caste order was established in Tamil Nadu only during the rule of Kulotunga Chola who is actually half-Tamil and half-Telugu. The result is there for us to see in history. The great Chola empire which ruled all of Southern and Eastern India and the whole of Southeast Asia (The Cholas had probably the greatest Navy the world had seen till then) came crumbling down under the weight of brahminical institutions and collapsed like a pack of cards. Tamil society never raised its head again. It was successively ruled by foreign rulers starting from Nayakas, Marathas, Europeans etc. So much for your f..cking glory of casteist Tamil society. Of course, Periyar and Anna have been unsuccessful in liberating the Tamil society from the yoke of nonsensical brahminism which is the root cause of Tamil sufferings whether in Sri Lanka or in India or Malaysia. Instead of releasing stinking gas all the time try to read some academic books – not some junk written by low-life like David Frawley.

      • Senthil says:

        Muthu, I support you. Let us proove St.Thomas landed in 1st Century in India and we will convert all these idiots in to Christian as per our hidden agenda.

    • dinesh kumar says:

      prithvi shankar, did sanatana dharma come from some people or did it get dropped to earth from some other galaxy. you might accept that it is the work of an unsettled set of people, who did not have roots.

      all the people who are related to me or known to me do not know anything about Satvika, Rajasa and Thamasa, nor have they ever heard about Prathista Karma. if some evangelists like ravi shankar and the rss come and convert them, then they will know. right now, we do not need to go up the mountain to make any offering to our gods, we do it at our temples, because thankfully we did not need to find employment for some brahmin. we have worked on the land, evolved our common sense and our traditions, and welcome anybody who brings new thinking. some of our ancient kings who tried to give employment to the brahmins must have realised the folly of doing so..because the brahmins and their institutions are a cancer, wanting to convert and control, never living with self-respect and peace among the people, who gave them the space to ply their inhuman myths.

  43. tamilselvan says:

    TRUE……if a revolution starts….there ll be some people who will always oppose…but at last they ll be washed away ….winning flames…………arundathiyas face the heat of caste discrimination most……..adidravidars and devendrakulla vellars should always be at their side…….and help them….fight for them..with dalit brotherhood….

  44. Tass Holmes says:

    good on you Meena! I admire your courage!

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